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September 14, 2005
Maybe Chase 'haters' is too strong
David Poole, not your most consistent defender of NASCAR and the way the company changes racing rules and policies the way some of us do our underwear, wrote positively and eloquently the other day about the Chase for the Championship.
Some readers hit Thatsracin.com's feedback button and wrote us - as eloquently, even if more to the point - of their disagreement with David.
In short, Poole wrote that other major league sports have playoff systems that are no more or less arbitrary than NASCAR's decision to narrow the Nextel Cup championship field to the top-10 drivers and teams after the first 26 races.
"The only significant major sport that doesn't use something that's at least akin to a Chase-style system is college football, and its championship format is perhaps the most bone-headed thing ever devised."
That, to me, seems to meet the criteria for hard to argue with, but many seem to disagree.
"Why do we have the stupid point system anyway?" Joann writes. "The way I look at it, the man on top at end of year should be the winner..."
Says Rodger: "Chase haters will get over it like I am. They will just turn off the NEXXXXTEL WWF !!!!!!!!!!!!!"
"Re your op-ed about the chase...and those who note that Emperor France is nekkid," writes Em Bee, who - as best we can tell - was a close relative of the late Aunt Bee. "You have the worst case of the Lewinsky Syndrome I've seen since the impeachment hearings way back in the 90s.
"You obviously have lost touch with the majority of race fans."
Martha, breaking the silence of her majority, adds these thoughts.
"I, for one, and I'm sure many others, am through watching racing for the season. Once your driver is out, if everyone would quit attending and watching, they would go back to real racing.
"This 'Chase' is just another bottom line deal for Nascar."
And from Philip: "I used to be die hard nascar fan . It sucks now. Without Gordon and earnhart who cares. It's boreing."
Who's to say who speaks for the majority?
Someone I know in public relations firmly believes the people who join in chat room and bulletin board discussions are overwhelmingly negative. I suppose he'd lump feeder-backers in with that group as too negative to consider.
And polls? Not scientific in their sampling. Certainly true enough in the case of our Poll Position.
But in early voting, ThatsRacin.com readers seem to offer a little vindication for Mr. France's non-NFL Folly, a.k.a. The Chase.
The most respondents so far say they "hate" the still relatively new Chase format. But the other two choices combined, "Love it" and Don't care - Let's race" are pretty close to the numbers put up by the nattering nabobs of negativism.
But it's still too close to call.
September 14, 2005 in Racing | Permalink
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Comments
Do I like "The Chase" as it is now, Nah? It's a playoff where theres no parity in the season to start with so it's biased heavily to the well funded multi-teams at the end of the season. It has potential but I have my NFL Sunday Ticket and I'll watch the races I want based on how my guy is doing not by where the chase guys are.
Posted by: Keith | Sep 14, 2005 11:44:35 AM
Here is where Poole keeps missing the point - racing is NOT LIKE other sports. It is one individual versus another individual versus another individual on down the line, and by arbitrarily shutting out drivers out of the top ten you shut out any chance of them making the top ten - they rescored the 2004 Chase and found some major differences, such as Jamie McMurray making the top ten at the end and a completely different winner.
Posted by: Mike Daly | Sep 14, 2005 11:51:22 AM
My mother has told me, "What's popular is not always right, and what's right is not always popular." Just because everyone else has a playoff format does not mean it's the right thing to do, atleast not for competition's sake. True it is much more exciting to watch. I still do not see chase coverage of NASCAR like I see NFL, NBA, or MLB on local news; because there is no local NASCAR team! THE FLAW of NASCAR is the fact every team is in the Charolotte area, there is no common interest in one local team for local news outlets to cover. This week, the start of NHL training camp is getting more coverage than when NASCAR comes to town. This is pathetic. Excuse me now, as my co-workers are on their way to jump off a bridge. I think I will too.
Posted by: Kevin Dearing | Sep 14, 2005 12:40:47 PM
I am so, so, so tired of all the whining.
The people who whine that since their driver didn't make it they won't watch are like 2-year-olds throwing tantrums because Mommy isn't buying candy today.
They aren't race fans, they aren't even decent driver groupies. Just a pack of spoiled brats who think the world has ended because the driver they don't love enough to support through an off year isn't in contention.
I've got news for them -- those drivers who didn't make the Chase would have been long out of contention under the old system too.
Posted by: MBVoelker | Sep 14, 2005 3:12:01 PM
The other *huge* issue is that this isn't a postseason playoff.
In other sports, tournaments and playoffs eliminate those who don't qualify, and continue to eliminate teams or individuals until there is one winner.
The Nascar scheme doesn't do that. It essentially makes one season into two seasons, one 26 races long, one 10, where during the 10, 33 cars are running to see who can be the best of that group, and 10 cars are running to see who can be the best of that group.
It is simply a scheme to reduce the gap between the top 10 drivers to make for a closer finish - if that was really the goal, they should have revamped the points system. Eliminate bonus points, and give 1 point for 43rd, and 1 additional point for each position; better yet, award 1 point for qualifying, and award 1 point for every position from 20 up, so everyone finishing 21st or worse gets one point, 20th place gets 2 points, and first gets 22. At the end of the year, certainly a couple of cars would be able to win the championship in the last race.
At the end of the day, the biggest issue is that the team that scores the most points in a season doesn't necessarily win the championship, and given how Nascar keeps score, that doesn't make sence.
Posted by: Paul | Sep 14, 2005 3:45:10 PM
I have to say I agree with the "King" Richard in my assesment of the Chase. At first I was against it, but now I love it. It certainly adds some excitement to the sport. Most years the championship is not a close race and the end of the season is boring. All you have to tune into is if your driver is going to win or not. The Chase hasn't changed that. I think it gives a lot more drivers the opportunity to win the Championship and therefore a lot more fans reason to tune in and watch. As far as the arguement that the Chase doesn't give someone outside the top ten a chance to finish in the top ten at the end of the season, who cares? Nobody remembers the guy who finished in 6th or 7th place. I don't brag about what place my driver finished in the points. I care about wins and championships and I think that's what drivers care about. The Chase gives more drivers a chance to win the elusive Cup and that's good for sponsors, drivers, and the fans.
Posted by: Michael | Sep 14, 2005 4:13:39 PM
One other comment on the Chase, I know a lot of Nascar fans maybe don't understand or care about the business of Nascar, but the Chase frankly may have kept Nascar from sinking under poor economic times. Brian France should be commended for the forsight and "cajones" for making the change. I think you only have to look at the IRL and Cart series to see what can happen if all of the pieces of the puzzle are not in place... competitive racing, good marketing, and financial backing. The IRL just announced an even shorter season. Nascar is flourishing while the other racing series in America are not. And frankly there are a lot of playoff systems in sports that do not crown the best team each year. I wouldn't say the SuperBowl champion each year is the greatest team by winning one match up against a team. The NCAA basketball tournament is a crap shoot. And we don't have to even talk about the NCAA football. A lot of playoff sometimes crown a team that is not the best. But, all playoffs add excitment and make viewers tune in at the end of the year.
Posted by: Michael | Sep 14, 2005 4:25:17 PM
The difference between baseball, basketball, football and hockey, compared to NASCAR, is that those champions are still determined by winning games. In the playoffs, it's the team that wins the most games, not the team that puts the most points on the board. Yes I know that sounds like the same thing but what I meant is that one team might win a basketball game 100-70 and then lose the next 4 by a combined 5 points. So while they scored more points than their opponent in the playoff series, they still lost 4 games and that's what determined the winner.
In NASCAR, it's not about who wins the most but rather who puts the most points on the board. Jimmy Johnson won 4 races to Kurt's 1 in the final 10 but Kurt was still the champ. I think NASCAR needs to scrap the chase, scrap the points system and come up with a system that rewards winning more than it does consistency. I still think that there needs to be a balance between winning and consistency but the current system favors consistency way too much.
Only one driver since 1991 has won the championship while winning the most races in the same season and that was Jeff Gordon. He did it all 4 times that he won the championship. No one else has done that since 1991. In fact 4 times since 1999, the driver that won the most races in the season finished outside the top 5 in the final standings. Am I the only one that sees a problem with that?
Posted by: Ken | Sep 14, 2005 5:16:52 PM
The problem with trying to compare the Nascar not-a-playoff to other sports is still valid: In other sports, every team does not play every other team each weekend. Nor are they all in the same 'division'. Artificially compressing points to pretend that drivers more than 400 points out of first after race 26 (Nascar's admitted point of no return) makes this even sillier. It was a gimmick to try to out rate the NFL. And frankly, the attitude of those like Mr. Poole, telling race fans that don't like the crapshoot we are basically too stupid to appreciate it, is one of the many things that have cut down my watching of the racertainment on weekends.
Posted by: Sal | Sep 14, 2005 7:24:44 PM
This is NOT raceing it is a class in defensive driving. Do not hit anything or drive to fast just be careful and finish the best you can. IS THAT RACIN????
Posted by: Putnam | Sep 14, 2005 7:34:43 PM
Dale Earnhardt would consider the chase a disgrace and a thinly disguised ruse to rob legitimate winners of their hard earned championships. It was designed to maintain interest and reward people who are not in contention for a true title. This belittles all of Dale's, Gordon's and other legends championships. Gordon is last years champ according to points accumulated and when held up to the light of Dale's 7 championships. He is a five time champ but only gets credit for 4. Initially nearly all drivers andd fans were vehemently against the chase. Kurt Busch finished 8th last year over the course of a full season and is a joke of a champion and finished 300+ pts behind the true champion. Martk Martin will never win a championship under the old system (came damn close). But even a Mark Martin who hasn't won a race this year qualifies for the Chase while other race winners do not. Martin is a great driver and an admirable man but under a more reasonable points system does not qualify as Nascar Champion. The 500 points for the first win is a much better way to separate winners from points racers. Each additional win for a driver should net him an additional 25 pts per win after the first win. I shudder to think who are champions would be if the points systems from champions past were recalculated using the current method. Could be anyone in the top ten. Anyone care to configure? No chase. Make every race count. The chase has created an environment for multi car teams to help each other keep rival contenders at bay. Why not just park the other 33 drivers and let the 10 fight it out? Imaginary points given so positions 11 thru 43 can't catch up and spoil the other 10 whether they are worthy or not. Chase champions who are not the champions over the entire season are paper champions and not worthy to be mentioned with the likes of Gordon and Dale Earnhardt. The best drivers get screwed and the others hope for a lotto win!
Posted by: Evan Ferguson | Sep 14, 2005 7:45:15 PM
Somehow I knew this topic would bring out more "haters" than supporters. There is more convoluted logic displayed than I have time to counter so I'll start and end, for now, here:
EVAN FERGUSON: "It was designed to maintain interest and reward people who are not in contention for a true title. This belittles all of Dale's, Gordon's and other legends championships. Gordon is last years champ according to points accumulated and when held up to the light of Dale's 7 championships."
This statement appears to be offered to support NASCAR should place emphasis on winning. I would agree to a certain degree, but you use Dale Earnhardt as an example and hold up his well deserved 7 Championships as what others should be judged by and what the Chase has denigrated. So here is Dale Sr's record during Champ years.
1994 Dale 4 wins, 2nd Rusty Wallace 8 wins.
1993 Dale 6 wins, 2nd Rusty Wallace 10 wins.
1991 Dale 4 wins, 3rd Davey Allison 5 wins, Harry Gant 4th 5 wins.
1990 Dale 9 wins and argueably, along with 1987, his best years, no one else had more than 3 wins in '90.
1987 Dale 11 wins, 2nd Bill Elliott 6 wins
1986 Dale 5 wins, 3rd Tim Richmond 7 wins.
1980 Dale 5 wins, 2nd Cale Yarborough 6 wins.
So out of 7 championships only two were the result of Senior having more wins than his competitors. And that begs the question Evan, was Wallace's "most wins" years of 93 and 94 "belittled" because Dale Sr. was more consistent that others?
A couple other quotes from you Evan: "Martk [sic] Martin will never win a championship under the old system (came damn close)."
Some would say he did, and lost only because of a penalty handed down by NASCAR that amounted to more points than he trailed that years Champ by. And I have to ask, considering Martin will run Cup in '06, what method gives you the ability to predict the future? Tea leaves? Ouija board? Or an extention of anti-Chase bias?
EVAN: "The chase has created an environment for multi car teams to help each other keep rival contenders at bay."
OK lets asume that is correct and also assume the Chase doesn't exsist this year.
How would the current standings change? They wouldn't would they? Or perhaps I'am incorect, so please Evan explain?
One final word for those that won't watch the Chase for a variety of reasons and will scurry off to watch Oprah and Dr. Phil or the crackheads of the NFL instead. Your in the minority based on last years attendance figures and TV ratings. I predict your leaving will not result in a ratings drop and in fact they will rise again.
Se see ya.
Posted by: Marc | Sep 14, 2005 10:06:26 PM
Negativity? On Internet forums such as this one? No way!
Posted by: David Green | Sep 14, 2005 10:53:47 PM
Saying that Mark Martin does not qualify as a Nascar champion is probably one of the most ludicrous statement's ever uttered. The man has 34 Cup series wins. And as stated above, if not for one of those "action detrimental..blah blah" penalties, he would have the championship he deserves. Also, I'm a Jeff Gordon fan, but you can't really say he would have won the championship last year. Several teams who were locked into the chase experimented with set ups and engines in races leading up to the chase because they knew they were safe. You can't compare apples and oranges. Bottom line...people want drama and excitement in sports. People crave the buzzer beaters shots, the game winning field goals and the bump and run out of turn 4 to win. It's human nature and Nascar found a way to deliver it on a consistent basis rather than the once in a blue moon tight championship races. Is it perfect, probably not. Is it exciting, yes. Is it healthy for the sport..absolutely.
Posted by: Michael | Sep 14, 2005 11:29:34 PM
Personally I feel the system is not as bad as peope make it out to be. I'm a Tony Stewart fan so I would think I would be in that group that would hate it becasue he lost his shot at the title last year due to Robby Gordon in the first race of the chase, but I'm not becasue that is just how things go. Heck I would still watch if he wasn't in the chase becasue I am a race fan. It has some flaws but I have yet to hear a good sugestion to change it. I feel winning should be rewarded more, but it shouldn't erase consistancy. My suggestion to that would be to give 5 more points per win for any driver that makes the chase. That means they are rewarded for winning those races but doesn't penalize the guys who were consistant enough to make the chase. Also I feel that they shouldn't make a seperate point system for the chase guys beacuse every position should be worth point so they will race completely and not just when someone in the chase is close to them.
Posted by: Clayon | Sep 14, 2005 11:53:23 PM
Ok "The Chase" is a fact of life so we have to live with it. But, if these are the top 10 guys in the "Playoff" then why not start all with the same amount of points. I mean it's a clean slate. The past 26 count for zip, squat, nada. In the first segment they all started with 0 and the 2nd half should be the same. And why separate the points from the other Drivers? Just give them a special decal. Why because NASCAR doesn't want us to see the "Golden 10" lose positions to the "Just Fillin the Field 33"
Posted by: Keith | Sep 15, 2005 8:45:43 AM
Ahh, 'The Chase'. How the mere mention of it brings about the ire of many, the support of some and the disinterest of others.
Personally, I've lost a great amount of interest in NASCAR the past couple of years since this new artificial playoff format (I know NASCAR hates the use of that term but too bad, it IS a playoff system). NASCAR is trying to do something about the lower viewership in the latter part of the season, that's not a bad thing but the way they went about it is.
Instead of the playoff format, why not revamp the points system and/or eliminate some races to shorten the season. NASCAR of course doesn't want to do this, they want to get into every market and have a long season. They must realize, when their season ends in the middle of the NFL season and they race on Sunday, they will always lose viewers to the NFL. Why not move the races to Saturday nights during this time instead?
There are other options, I just don't think NASCAR thought it through and instead went with the playoff gimmick to artificially create drama. In doing so, they are creating artificial champions.
Posted by: Moe | Sep 15, 2005 11:01:08 AM
"...eliminate some races to shorten the season," instead of the Chase?
In the famous words of Curly of the Three Stooges, "Hey Moe!"
And the result would be less purse money, less advertising money, lower total attendence, less everything in fact.
Well, not everything. The track owners that lose an event will raise ticket prices to regain lost revenue.
Wanna rethink your position Moe?
Posted by: Marc | Sep 15, 2005 8:32:10 PM
My very first reaction to the "chase" format was "What a crock...!!!" However, it didn't stop me or my husband from watching those last 10 races last year. Not even when our driver wasn't in the chase. Since it appears that we're stuck with it now, the only change I'd like to see would be for the number of eligible drivers to be 15. That way all the drivers involved face the risk of dropping out of the top 10 if they have a bad race. No one can end the year with an "oh, well - the worst we can end up is in 10th" attitude. They would all have to put their best effort into it for all 10 races.
Posted by: Robin | Sep 16, 2005 10:07:23 AM
Big guys and girls don't cry, they get even.
As soon as they came up with the stupid chase I tuned off. I now watch the truck series wich is still based on the desire to win races and be consistent and not on the desire to earn top money and sponsors.
Not to mention that I don't have 5 hours a week to give to Nascar. I remember back in the days when the broadcast of a race lasted only 3.5 hours and the pre-race show lasted 15 min. Those were the good old day before Fox and Tnt came in with more money than brains.
With the trucks, everything is said and done in about 2.5 hours and the finish is almost always exciting.
Go back to cutting the grass at the track Brian and let race people run the show!!
Posted by: everyone | Sep 16, 2005 12:43:26 PM
I truly don't understand the resentment to the Chase. If the Chase were not instituted and the point sat where they were at the end of Richmond, how many drivers would there be contending for the Championship? Realistically, only three: Tony Stewart, Greg Biffle, and Jimmie Johnson. Drivers like Jeff Gordon and Dale Earnhardt Jr. would have been considered out of the hunt a long time ago. The Chase has revitalized those in fourth through tenth. It also makes those top three stay on their game or they may find themselves at the bottom of the Top 10.
I can assure you that if you are a NASCAR fan in any form, you will be watching these ten races with interest. If you are only a fan of a particular driver that is out of the Chase and you plan on staying away, then don't consider yourself a NASCAR fan.
Posted by: Bill | Sep 16, 2005 3:43:56 PM
So, the only thing that matters is how many drivers you can have "in contention"? It doesn't matter if they wouldn't have a chance without pretending they are all within 5 points of each other? I'd say the ratings for Richmond should make some commentary. If the fans were all so breathless after the new crapshoot last year, why were ratings down for Richmond?
Posted by: Sal | Sep 16, 2005 5:19:47 PM
Sal, well said...the fans speak! We dont care about your silly chase we watch racing because we love it. And Bill, if our guy isn't in it with 10 to go, guess what? He wouldn't have been in it anyway! As fans we'll still root for our guy regardless of the Chase!
Posted by: Keith | Sep 16, 2005 8:25:21 PM
The chase for the chump points disgrace was, is and ALWAYS will be a cheap, sleezy, insulting roadside carny gimmick that has the WWF blushing in its absurdity. It has taken what WAS the best racing in the world and turned it into just another stupid and irrelevent network sitcom. It will NEVER produce a real champion. You race all year for that title... PERIOD. For 45+ years I always watched and attended NASCAR races because they were NOT like other sports. There were no player strikes, overpriced crybabies (except for Geoff Bodine) and the TV coverage was not written and produced for people with an IQ of less than 50. Add to the demise of the sport of stockcar racing the deliberate killing of Rockingham, Darlington and soon Martinsville for that useless piece of realestate in California and you have THE unforgivable sin. NA$CAR does not have fans any more... they have viewers and that is going to bite them in the a$$ before its all said and done because the viewers will drop them like a stone as soon as the next fad comes along. Thier attention spans are good for about 15 minutes and that's it. In the meantime, the true fans will be gone. The true fans have been sh*t on by NA$CAR for a long time now, and the chase for the chump is running us off in droves. I no longer watch the contrived and scripted series formally known as NA$CAR and I damn sure won't pay to attend another one. It's now just as stupid and insulting as any of the other "big-time" sports. I will spend my time and money on the IRL. At least they're actually allowed to race for thier championships.
Posted by: Gary Hammond | Sep 17, 2005 10:42:09 AM
Best post so far Gary!
I really feel the pain too.
I wish that you're right when you say that the chase and all the other crap (lucky dog, green white checker, etc.) will kill Nascar. It will be fun to see Brian France's little hypocryte face get smeered with sh*t. We can only dream to this day for now.
Posted by: everyone | Sep 17, 2005 3:49:30 PM
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