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March 23, 2005
NASCAR overturns Hendrick crew chief suspensions
NASCAR announced that they are overturning the suspensions for Hendrick crew chiefs Chad Knaus and Alan Gustafson after reviewing evidence in their appeals. Nothing was mentioned as to what this evidence was. Both Knaus and Gustafson are on 90 days probation instead of the suspensions, the rest of the penalties assessed to them will stand. No word on Berrier.
What kind of message does this send? Does this mean NASCAR is sending empty threats about rule violations? Are they playing favorites again?
A lot of people thought the penalties, especially the suspensions, were too harsh. I thought with the latest round of penalties that they handed down, that NASCAR was finally putting their foot down and meant business. By overturning these suspensions, it's like they're saying it's no big deal. NASCAR admitted that the fines don't work, taking points away wasn't working too well either, that's why they started with the suspensions. To me, this doesn't send the message of "stay within the box," it says "try and stay within the box or you'll get a slap on the wrist."
If it was near the end of the season the points could have an impact, but not now, 25 points is not going to make or break a team or driver this early in the season and the fines are just pennies to them.
This may make a lot of people mad because they disagree with my thoughts, but NASCAR's "we're getting tough" stance just went right out the window with the reversal of the suspensions.
March 23, 2005 in NASCAR | Permalink
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I can not believe this. I don't like any of the Hendrick's teams but get real, do they get a break. No, they were guilty and should be punished like any other team. I have been a nascar fan since I was 5 years old, this is discusting. It makes me wonder if I want to continue paying my earmed money to see a Hendricks car win the championship, which looks like it may be given to them. Very upset.
Posted by: sylvia | Apr 6, 2005 10:34:38 PM
Chad, let me ask you a few questions:
1- If lowering the car creates a DISadvantage, why is there a MINIMUM height requirement?
2- If a team knows ahead of time that they will be losing rear downforce due to a pre-determined "malfunction", wouldn't it be fairly easy to compensate for by starting the car off tight? Then, when the loss of rear downforce occurs, it'll balance out.
3- Even if it wasn't intentional, don't you think it's time NASCAR started holding teams and CCs responsible? When the SAME infraction continues to happen over and over, with the SAME excuse given, don't you think the CCs should take steps to prevent it from happening? In the past 3 years, there have been no less than 8 instances of cars being too low due to a "stripped" or "broken" bolt (Jarrett, Martin, Gordon,
Earnhardt Jr, Nadeau, Johnson (twice), Kennseth). If there's a recurring problem, then it's the CC's responsibility to address that problem. If they don't, then they need to suffer the consequences.
4- Don't you find it the least bit strange that this lowering of the car SUPPOSEDLY is a DISadvantage, yet it keeps occurring on the cars that win the race?
Personally, I don't know if this was an intentional thing or not. I do believe the circumstantial evidence supports it, but there's no hard proof. Still, the team (primarily the CC) is responsible for making sure the car is legal. There is apparently a known issue with the wedge bolts stripping/breaking. Therefore, it's the CC's/team's responsibility to fix the problem. If they choose not to, then they need to be punished. And when the SAME infractions keep happening, then the punishments need to keep increasing until the teams finally decide to take action.
And no, I'm not a Jr fan. And yes, I'd be saying the same thing no matter which car it was.
Posted by: Phil | Mar 26, 2005 1:08:37 PM
Chad,
First of all, not everyone here is a Junior fan.
As for the bolts stripping, as I recall, this is not the first time the 48 has had this. Even if there is no competitive advantage, is there a safety issue involved? AND, if we can install inferior bolts in the chassis of a car, then why not on the spoiler at someplace like Talladega? Inferior bolt strips, lowers the spoiler, advantage - straight-a-way! 25 points? $50,000? Who cares if you can get big victories at plate tracks, right? Then when the chase comes around, you are in it, and then start using the good stuff, so it doesn't strip anymore.
I thought the intial penalties were fair and proper by NASCAR, and that is something for this long-time fan. I wouldn't say there is favoritism. No proof. But, food for thought - what if this had been Robbie Gordon's crew chief? Or Morgan Shepards?
Posted by: BARman | Mar 25, 2005 4:40:52 PM
NASCAR and/or the NSCC aren't playing favorites - Remember back in 2000 when Jeff Gordon won Richmond and was found to have an intake manifold that was illegal. He was docked points and fined and appealed before the National Stock Car Commission. He lost his appeal. So people shouldn't say NASCAR or the appeal board is playing favorites.
Second of all, NASCAR didn't reverse the suspensions. An independent board did.
Thirdly and for the last time, why would Knaus intentionally put a faulty bolt in the car causing it to lower it, knowing that if that happened, Johnson's car would lose a great percentage of rear downforce.
Get a clue Juneyer fans!
Posted by: Chad | Mar 25, 2005 3:18:54 PM
Y'know, I was really happy to see NASCAR finally putting their foot down and handing out penalties that meant something. And now they go and reverse it. Lame.
The monetary fines never worked. Fining a team $50k after they win a $1M+ prize is a joke. NASCAR realized that and started hitting the points. Points penalties (at least, on the order of 25 a pop) aren't working either. Especially this early in the season. Does anyone honestly think that the 48 team is going to miss the "Chase" by 25 points? Not likely. And when the points get reset with 10 to go, it means the points penalty was completely and utterly pointless (no pun intended).
The fact that we continue to see the SAME violation (under min height) again and again with the SAME excuse (bolt stripped) again and again says that the teams don't give a crap about the 25 points. Either the teams are doing something to intentionally cause this bolt to "strip" and lower the car, or they're just plain negligent for not trying to fix a continuing and known problem and need to be punished accordingly. A 2 race suspension for the CC is appropriate, IMO. And repeated violations by the same team should result in longer suspensions, higher points penalties and eventually a DQ or two. As long as NASCAR keeps relying on idle threats and slaps on the wrist, there will be no integrity whatsoever. And more and more fans are going to be leaving out of disgust.
Posted by: Phil | Mar 25, 2005 1:54:51 PM
Dude, you need to either raise or lower your meds.....
Posted by: Rusty Shackleford | Mar 25, 2005 4:11:07 AM
does it really matter who is up ront besides
ROUSH AND HENDRICK???? Heck they had the most trouble the past 2 years.... Shoot JR got in trouble fopr saying a little 4 letter ya hear so much worse watching the saoap plus night time tv and tv fronm 7:00 pm on not after 10:00pm or anything...
yeah NASCAR show us whats going on...
ok.this is from a long time nascar fan...if DALE SR WAS ALIVE<<
no damn wonder the tarcks are not sold out..excet for the 1/2 mile traks...yeah nascar keeps building the BIG tracks and wonderduh duh duh
shoot there is too many NEW rules each week us fans cant even keep up,,,so how can the drivers?
Ans NASCAR,,,What would happen if BUDWEISER WOULD PULL OUT????? I even emailed them and told them too do just that,,cause ya all dont get it////go rule changing nascar.
not HUGE Fan no more...
and not too damn many no more
AND I HOPE SOMEONE FROM NASCAR ACTUALLY READS THIS ,,CAUSE ITS MOST OF THE FANS FEELINGS,,,BUT IF WE HAD NASCARS EMAIL IT WOULD NOT BE IN HERE...
\A VERY UNHAPPY FAN OF 15 YEARS...TRUELLY BAD CRAP//
Posted by: cj luckenbaugh | Mar 25, 2005 3:02:37 AM
does it really matter who is up ront besides
ROUSH AND HENDRICK???? Heck they had the most trouble the past 2 years.... Shoot JR got in trouble fopr saying a little 4 letter ya hear so much worse watching the saoap plus night time tv and tv fronm 7:00 pm on not after 10:00pm or anything...
yeah NASCAR show us whats going on...
ok.this is from a long time nascar fan...if DALE SR WAS ALIVE<<
no damn wonder the tarcks are not sold out..excet for the 1/2 mile traks...yeah nascar keeps building the BIG tracks and wonderduh duh duh
shoot there is too many NEW rules each week us fans cant even keep up,,,so how can the drivers?
Ans NASCAR,,,What would happen if BUDWEISER WOULD PULL OUT????? I even emailed them and told them too do just that,,cause ya all dont get it////go rule changing nascar.
not HUGE Fan no more...
and not too damn many no more
Posted by: cj luckenbaugh | Mar 25, 2005 3:01:15 AM
I see business as usual is the garage and the Hendrick teams will continue to cheat and get away with since they seem to think they were vindicated by NASCAR overturning the suspensions. Lets hope that the 90 days probation means something, but I find that hard to believe that it will.
But to be fair to most teams will push the envelop and when they get caught they need to be punished. How many times is NASCASR going to believe that it wasn't intentional when the situation involves a member of Hendrick MotorSports.
I think it is awfully funny that everytime Gordon is involved in a incident it is always the other drivers fault even if Gordon was the one that hit the car that spun out.
Posted by: Jon | Mar 24, 2005 9:38:02 PM
Tim M,
25 points, woop-te-doo? Yeah, I'm sure Chip Ganassi and Jamie McMurray (failed D measurement at Bristol) were saying woop-te-doo after they failed to qualify for the Chase last year by less than 25 points.
Posted by: Chad | Mar 24, 2005 7:49:17 PM
I think we must all admit that we don't have the same information that Nascar and the appeals board had. We are making judgements without seeing the same information that the powers that be are seeing. I'd wish Nascar would release all of the data so that we can look at it and come to our own educated decisions.
I would like to see changes however:
1. Check ALL cars for legalality after EVERY race...not just the top 5.
2. 25 point penalties are a joke. That's five or six positions...woop-te-doo! You give 150 point penalties for cheating and that would mean something. Forget suspensions, Jimmie Johnson will do just as fine whether Chad Knaus is there or not. Those high budget teams are just too deep.
Posted by: Tim M. | Mar 24, 2005 7:02:54 PM
One thing to keep in mind, Sara, are those incredibly short pit stops. You're really asking a lot for Chad - or the crew - to alter the bolt AND make some sort of magical adjustment to make the car perfect in 14 seconds or less. Those things, of course, would be in addition to any other "normal" adjustments made on the car.
So how exactly do you think they accomplished this?
Oh, and Jon, I'm not a Johnson fan or a Gordon fan. Actually, I have actively rooted against Gordon for years.
Posted by: Linda | Mar 24, 2005 7:01:15 PM
There's something I still don't understand here. Assuming that everything that happened on the 48 happened exactly as Chad Knauss said it did - the bolt stripped during the race, causing the car to lower, which would have, as some have pointed out, rduced the downforce and made the car harder to drive. So.....how come Johnson was suddenly able to get around and lead the race? Yes, I know he's damn good, but come on.
The conspiracy theorist in me wonders if there weren't something else going on...I'm not accusing anyone of anything, but if I were a crew chief who had "played" with something on the car, a stripped bolt (accidentally stripped or not) that actually put the car at a disadvantage would make excellent cover. I would make a big show out of showing the bolt to every Nascar official I could find, making sure that their attention was focused on that. And given Nascar's tunnel vision, I'd almost certainly get away with it. Again, I'm not accusing anyone. As long as we're dissecting this thing, let's look at it from every angle.
Posted by: Sara | Mar 24, 2005 2:59:16 PM
It's almost laughable seeing how many people on the previous thread about suspensions were saying, "What's to keep Knaus from putting a faulty bolt in it in the future to make the car and gain an advantage."
Some people need to get a clue. Lowering the rear end of that car doesn't gain an advantage - save for Talladega!
I don't have an exact percentage on how much rear downforce was lost on the No. 48 car, but if it was 1/2 or 3/4 too low, that's a considerable amount. It's almost like trimming the rear spoiler some more - which NASCAR did in the first place to make the cars harder to drive.
So I've come to conclusion, Jimmie Johnson might have the biggest pair of you-know-whats when it comes to wheeling a race car.
Why? If I'm not mistaken, Jeff Gordon had a jackbolt that broke at Charlotte at the 600 last May and finished 5 or 6 laps down because he couldn't handle it.
Posted by: Chad | Mar 24, 2005 2:16:30 PM
Kevin,
I agree. Remember back in 2000 when Jeff Gordon won Richmond and was found to have an intake manifold that was illegal. He was docked points and fined and appealed before the National Stock Car Commission. He lost his appeal. So people shouldn't say NASCAR or the appeal board is playing favorites.
Also, when many fans heard of the suspensions and fines, they immediately thought they were cheating. The media is to blame, too. Only a couple outlets - Marty Smith at NASCAR.com for one - mentioned anything about the threads on the jackbolt being stripped.
Posted by: Chad | Mar 24, 2005 2:03:32 PM
Chad, you are right on all accounts. This is the first time that I heard how low Jimmie's car was at inspection. I knew about the broken jack bolt. Kyle Busch's car had a front left spring collapse during the race. Alan raised the right rear accordingly to compensate. Kyle Busch said the next day on Inside NEXTEL Cup that his car was 2/16 to 3/16 of an inch to high in the right rear. They put a full two turns in the right rear throughout the race. For the new fans out there most adjustment are a 1/4 to 1/2 turn. All teams in NASCAR are looking for an edge. None of them want to cheat. If a team makes a habit of cheating their sponsor will pull out and go elsewhere, costing the team millions of dollars. In my opinion this is a non-story that the media blew out of proportion in order to get ratings. NASCAR needs to do a better job of communicating the details of rules infractions to the fans so the fans can make a more informed decision. I thought that the supensions were to harsh for the infractions. I agree with the punishment now. NASCAR needs to punish teams for all rule infractions but they need to take into account what really happend. That way you don't have teams designing their cars to break in order to get an advantage. Unless you grew up around a race track and have an intimate knowledge of how these cars are built you can't always declare when someone is cheating and is not cheating. Leave the decision making to NASCAR and leave the appeals process to the National Stock Car Racing Commission. By the way who is going to be the next team that NASCAR is going to play favorites. For a while it was Chevy, then Ford, then Gordon, then Dale Jr., now it is Hendrick, I suppose that Robby Gordon and his team will be next. Let's be serious here NASCAR does not play favorites. Just because your team is having bad luck doesn't mean that NASCAR is at fault!
Posted by: Kevin | Mar 24, 2005 12:42:32 PM
Jon,
Per Marty Smith from NASCAR.com, Knaus showed the NASCAR inspector after the race that the threads of the jackbolt were shiny. The inspectors agreed with Knaus and everybody though everything was hunky-dory. But NASCAR chose to look at it black-and-white and handed down the suspension.
Why would Chad Knaus take away a great percentage of rear downforce by lowering the car? That made the car REAL loose, especially out front. That's not cheating!
Posted by: Chad | Mar 24, 2005 11:30:38 AM
Chad,
The only proof they have is that they loosened the bolt themselves and said it happened on the track. You can justify their cheating all you want, the fact of the matter is all that was done was overturned the suspension. They still know they cheated and that is why the rest of the penalties are sticking.
Posted by: Jon | Mar 23, 2005 10:41:54 PM
Kathy,
Some flaws in your story. First of all, NASCAR didn't overturn the penalties. The National Stock Car Commission - an panel independent of NASCAR - heard the appeals. Yes, NASCAR is serious about clamping down. But no, they aren't backtracking on this. They, like you, were probably disappointed in hearing this decision.
Secondly, both the Hendrick cars weren't at an advantage. Johnson's car was 3/4 too low, which is much like cutting another 1/2 off the spoiler - that put it at a disadvantage.
Some people are forgetting to realize that Chad Knaus and Jimmie Johnson had proof that a jackbolt had backed out of place, causing this to occur. The panel undoubtedly looked at this evidence and took it into consideration. Also, Kyle Busch's crew chief Alan Gustafson must have had some proof as to why their car was too high - which would have been an advantage.
I applaud the commission for looking at all sides of the matter and taking it into consideration when rendering its decision.
Posted by: Chad | Mar 23, 2005 10:05:40 PM
More NA$CAR BS.
The penalties were fair. For Berrier, Knaus, and Gustafson.
I can see a whole lot of bolts becoming "stripped" during the races. Gee NA$CAR, we didn't know it was an inferior bolt, and now our car is too low. Gosh, we're sorry.
Right.
Credibility=zero.
Posted by: BARman | Mar 23, 2005 8:25:43 PM
In this case I have to agree with DW's comments
Commission gains credibility with recent decisions
Darrell Waltrip / AllWaltrip.com
As I read the National Stock Car Racing Commission's statements after the members heard and considered the appeals of two Hendrick Motorsports teams, I thought to myself, "Wow, finally the commission has shown some credibility."
Through the years, we've all winked and looked the other way because we knew that an appeal to the commission would get us nowhere. It was just a formality. Based on the decisions that the commission has made recently, it shows me that NASCAR has put a whole lot more emphasis on being objective, listening to the evidence and putting it in other people's hands.
The commission members meet and listen to the competitors (the owner and the driver) and NASCAR. This isn't taken lightly any more because there's so much at stake. I just really feel more confident and comfortable that there is an appeal board now. Through the years, drivers and owners have appealed their cases to the commission as they said to themselves, "We're just wasting our time, but we're going to do it anyway."
I really think the commission's recent decisions have shown a desire to be objective and take into consideration whatever intent there may have been or when, where and how a rule infraction was discovered. In my eyes, this commission now has credibility that it never had before.
As a former competitor, I can't tell you how grateful I am to know that this commission now has some teeth, and it now has a voice. The members are reviewing these fines, points deductions and suspensions, and they are making their own decisions based on the facts. Crew chiefs aren't Houdini. They've got inspectors in their pit to document every move they make so if something happened, it can be proven that it wasn't done intentionally or with some preconceived idea notion that a jackbolt would fail.
Whether you agree with the penalties or not, all of us who follow the sport should applaud NASCAR and the commission because we now know that there is an unbiased, third party that reviews penalties and gives each team a fair shot. It's a huge turnaround from the past. The appeal process is really encouraging to me, and it's critical for the future of the sport.
Posted by: Don | Mar 23, 2005 7:31:53 PM
Kathy, I am with you all the way on the whole suspension....oh no wait, the no suspension fiasco. Ever notice how everything that NASCAR does these days turns into a fiasco. However, how can you say that losing 25 points now isn't going to matter cause it is early in the year. That's like saying scoring a touchdown in the first quarter is not as important as one in the fourth quarter. At the end of the year, oh sorry...after the first 26 races if you are 401 points out of first and in 11th place in points,it does not matter if you lost those points after the first race or the twenty-sixth race or anywhere in between for that matter, you are OUT of the chase.
Posted by: Kevin | Mar 23, 2005 7:23:37 PM
MB and Linda, I am going to take a stab in the dark and say that both of you are Johnson or Grodon fans when you claim that suspensions for cheating were too harsh. The two teams were suspended for having an obvious unfair advantage in the race cars. Both of these violations had a direct impact on the finish in the race and should not have been over turned.
I think that it should take a unanimous decision to overturn any punishment leveled by NASCAR. NASCAR should require overwhelming evidence to overturn their decision. There is no way in hell that what happened with both Johnson and Busch's cars were completely intentional and they should have been hammered for cheating.
Jimmie Johnson's own words say it all "What ever you just did on that stop fixed it". That too me it is obvious Chad Knaus knew exactly whjat happened and it wasn't no accident.
Posted by: Jon | Mar 23, 2005 7:06:41 PM
I think the suspensions were too much. If Jimmie were consistently low - and you gotta believe he gets checked all the time because of his high finishes - then that would be another deal entirely. But I think this early in the season, with "bugs" not yet completely worked out, a little leeway should be granted.
Let's wait and see if additional problems come up.
Posted by: Linda | Mar 23, 2005 3:43:31 PM
I think that the right decision was made (BTW -- isn't that commission independent rather than part of the Nascar powers that be?). The suspensions for the Hendrick crew chiefs were unprecedented and unduly harsh for violations not proven intentional.
Maybe it will finally occur to Nascar to set out defined penalties for defined violations before the season starts? I know, not too likely, but if the penalty for having a car too low had been laid out in black and white before the start of Speedweeks then there would be little grounds for overturning an appeal.
The powers that be may want to get tough but they're not going to be able to get tough without actually putting some rules down in ink and thinking all the way through the issue for a change.
Posted by: MBVoelker | Mar 23, 2005 3:15:04 PM
I have heard of one team THIS year that has won an appeal. The 32 WinFuel Busch (Braun Racing and Shane Hmiel's ride)car had a problem at one of the races, I think California. They appealed the crew chiefs suspension and won their appeal. (they showed it on NBS 24/7 the other night)
So, maybe this review board, or whatever it is, doesn't care for suspensions, this is three just this year that have been reversed.
Posted by: truracinfan | Mar 23, 2005 2:56:32 PM
Kathy's last paragraph hit the nail on the head.
If Jamie McMurray would have won the race, and they found the car illegal and suspended Donnie Wingo and they appealed, do you think NASCAR would have folded like a deck of cards like they did with Johnson?
I mean come on, 2 cars, from the same team, on the same day, in the same race, finish 1-2 and both are found illegal? Something's rotten in North Wilkesboro....
Posted by: Jason | Mar 23, 2005 2:56:07 PM
You're going to hear the words 'playing favorites' a lot. I can't remember anyone appealing a penalty and actually winning an appeal. I always thought that appealing was an exercise in futility except for it being a formal way to tell NASCAR that the team didn't want admit fault. Monetary fines are useless. Unless they start giving the money to charity, don't even bother. Suspensions hurt worse than points, especially if you suspend a driver for something. Another instance of NASCAR credibility out the window.
Posted by: Forrest Smint | Mar 23, 2005 2:49:20 PM
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