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August 30, 2005
NASCAR hands down fines and docks points for Pattie and team
NASCAR came down hard on NASCAR Busch Series crew chief Brian Pattie for the illegal tires at Bristol. NASCAR fined Patties $35,000, suspended him for the next six Busch Series races and put him on probation until December 31st. Pattie was found to be in violation of Sections 12-4-A (actions detrimental to stock car racing), 9-4-A (the crew chief assumes responsibility for the actions of his team members) and 12-4-GG (any possession of or use of one or more tires that have been altered externally by unauthorized treatment) of the 2005 NASCAR Busch Series rule book.
Brandon Stafford, the tire specialist, was also suspended for six races and put on probation until December 31st for violating 12-4-A and 12-4-GG.
The worst part was that Reed Sorenson, driver of the #41 got penalized 50 points, along with Ganassi being penalized 50 owner points for violating Sections 12-4-A and 12-4-GG.
I agree with the crew chief and tire specialist fines and penalties and can even see them docking Ganassi points, maybe not 50, but some points. I don't understand why Sorenson, who had nothing to do with it, he didn't even know anything about it until Pattie and Stafford were escorted out of Bristol, why did he have to lose points? And why was it 50? I've never seen them dock someone that much, especially for something he had nothing to do with!
I've never agreed with them taking points away from drivers when they had nothing to do with it, owners okay, but not the drivers, only if the driver did something should he lose points. And then for it to be 50, I just don't get it.
Thanks to his crew chief, Sorenson can kiss any hopes that were still alive for the championship. I hope Ganassi takes a good hard look at what Pattie did and deals with it correctly, like fire him, because I sure don't want him around to help screw Sorenson over again next year.
August 30, 2005 in NASCAR | Permalink
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» Guilty as Charged ! from Full Throttle
The verdict is in, but NASCAR ’s sentence is light.Busch Series driver Reed Sorenson’s crew chief was suspended for six races Tuesday for soaking tires at Bristol Motor Speedway.
Brian Pattie was fined $35,000, suspended until Oct. 26 and... [Read More]
Tracked on Aug 30, 2005 7:29:47 PM
Comments
I agree with hammering Pattie and the Tire Specialist, but I don't agree with hammering Reed Sorenson. He didn't have anything to do with situation but he was hammered by NASCAR.
Posted by: Jon | Aug 30, 2005 6:25:32 PM
You're assuming Sorenson didn't know about the infraction. I assume he didn't either but to categorically state he didn't is wrong unless NASCAR says so.
By most reports I've read the NASCAR official that caught them doing their business just "happened upon them." That seems to imply they were in a fairly open area. If not open at least easily accessible. That opens the possibility that Sorenson also knew what was happening. Unless NASCAR states otherwise that assumption is valid.
As far as 50 points hurting Sorenson's title hopes, he was nearly 400 points behind Truex, before the penalty, his chance was slim at best. It's not an issue.
Here's a memory jog. Mark Martin is recognized by many as the most successfull NASCAR driver to never have won a championship. He finished second in the final standings four times, third three times.
In the first month of the 1990 season, Mark won at Richmond. NASCAR officials, however, determined that spacer between his car’s manifold and carburetor was improper. Mark was allowed to keep the win, but his team was fined $40,000 and he was docked 46 championship points.
Anyone care to guess how much Martin lost the championship to Dale Sr. by?
Food for thought: Many that comment in the That's Racin' blogs have bashed Goodyear all year for allegedly shoddy products. What if "soaking tires" has been part of it? What if even 10% percent of the tire failures were due to "smarter cheaters" than these two buffoons that got caught?
Posted by: Marc | Aug 30, 2005 7:12:11 PM
Yeah I'm a little hazy on the he didn't know part. A team is a team and it seldom has many secrets unless someone chooses to not want to know. As for penalties and points...If it didn't have an effect on the race during the race there should be no points taken.
In pre-race and post qualifying inspections what you do to stop cheating is just disqualify the car for major cheating. I.E. the doctoring of tires etc. Minor violations a fine but no points. And, like Harvicks gas scam (even though I like him) no points (it didn't affect the race) but he starts the race with those 3 gallons of gas and can't pit and un-modify and gas up until say the 10th green lap. And gets a fine for trying.
Anything during the race and anything found in post-race inspection deemed "as cheating for an unfair advantage" is fair game for money and points...It affected the event!
Post race interviews and actions did not have an effect on the event and only money (maybe lots) should apply but never points.
JMO
Posted by: Keith | Aug 30, 2005 7:54:46 PM
It's not a question of did it, or did it not have an effect on the race.
It's a question of safety pure and simple and a preventive measure. It's meant to send the signal that altering tire construction isn't acceptable. Here are Kyle Petty's thoughts on the subject that I noted in a piece I wrote earlier at my place.
“That was just stupid,” Petty said. “And the penalty ought to be a long, long, long suspension, and the fine ought to be big, big, big.
“That’s a safety issue. What if someone soaks his tires, and degrades that rubber to the point where 15 laps into the race the tire blows and causes a big wreck and somebody gets injured? “There is simply no excuse for something like that.”
And I fully agree the penalties are far too soft. A few years ago in the Featherlite Modified Series the practice was so wide spread tires were popping like cheap circus balloons.
NASCAR had to step in and dictate that all tires must to be purchased the day of the event from the tire truck and under the watchful eye of an NASCAR official. Tires suddenly stopped blowing up after a few laps.
Posted by: Marc | Aug 30, 2005 8:41:18 PM
Marc it was pre-race and a major effort to cheat...disqual is -180 pts
Posted by: Keith | Aug 30, 2005 8:57:43 PM
Remember when Sorenson smoked the field at Nashville? That's a concrete track, too. I wonder if they were pulling the same stuff there?
Posted by: G | Aug 30, 2005 9:23:12 PM
The point of Kathy's post was not that no penalties should have been handed down for the cheating by the crew chief and tire specialist, it was the severity of the penalty of the driver when he didn't drive the car with the soaked tires on the car.
My concern is that NASCAR leveling fines against drivers of the cars that don't have any thing to do with what the crew chief or other team members do. You can't just assume that driver has to know what the crew chief does to the car.
Posted by: Jon | Aug 30, 2005 9:48:18 PM
IF Sorensen didn't know about the tires (and that is a big IF), he should have. If you are gonna send me out driving something that big that fast that close to 42 other things that big going that fast, I'm sure as hell gonna know what you are doing to my car.
Posted by: American Outlaw | Aug 30, 2005 9:59:46 PM
I believe the correct term here would be deterrent. NASCAR has sent the message loud and clear that altering tires is unacceptable. It is still cheating whether the driver is aware of it or not.
On Inside Nextel Cup it was mentioned the team was previously warned about this issue. It came from Spencer but hey he is part of the media now. But it does make me ask how many times the #41 team has done this before either in qualifying or in the race. I have serious doubts this is the first time.
He would have been hard pressed to unseat Truex Jr. has champ penalty or no. We can only hope this will begin the tailspin for the team and #60 takes the ROTY award.
Posted by: Todd | Aug 30, 2005 10:27:45 PM
Why are you all assuming that the driver knows what the crew chief is doing to the car. Most of the time the driver isn't sitting their watching the crew preparing tires and it sure does matter whether the driver knew about the doctoring of the tires since he is being punished for something he didn't do to the car. Had Reed doctored the tires right along with Stafford I would agree with hammering him, but their is no evidence that is what happened. NASCAR didn't say Reed had anyhting to do with it, but they chose to nail him anyways. Just like when they nailed Harvick for what Todd Barrier did to his car. I don't agree taking points from a driver for something the crew chief did to the car.
Posted by: Jon | Aug 30, 2005 11:39:25 PM
Jon: "You can't just assume that driver has to know what the crew chief does to the car."
And as I said in my first comment you can't assume Sorenson didn't know either without NASCAR conformation. And given it's history that will never come.
There are no points given to a crew chief, there is no "crew chief championship," as a result the ways to penalize him is to fine him, take drivers points and suspend him. Take your pick.
The driver may be an innocent bystander but that's the system they work with. Isn't the driver part of that same team that gets penalized? If the chief can get hit so does everyone else.
What's that line: "all for one and one for all."
So sad, too bad the driver suffers like all the rest the same as a "stipid driver trick" that costs everyone. Or that loose lugnut that costs everyone.
Posted by: Marc | Aug 31, 2005 12:38:50 AM
Marc,
Remember innocent until proven guilty, I don't have to assume he knows until he proves he didn't know. It is the system that I am saying if flawed and should be changed.
Posted by: Jon | Aug 31, 2005 5:01:49 AM
Racing is a team sport. What happens to one happens to all.
Penalizing driver points is fair because the driver is the ultimate benefactor of any form of cheating.
Posted by: MBVoelker | Aug 31, 2005 5:34:34 AM
I think NASCAR is trying to send a signal that the driver better know what is going on with his car, because they are going to hold him partly responsible. Back in the good ole days, the driver would have been under the car turning wrenches next to the other crew members. I bet that kind of driver would have known what was going on.
Posted by: American Outlaw | Aug 31, 2005 7:47:35 AM
Drivers should absolutely get points taken away for car infractions, whether they know about them or not. It's not Nascar's job to try and figure out what a driver does and doesn't know about his car. If anyone on the team gets cought cheating, the entire team should be held responsible. Frankly I don't like the separate Owner/Driver points systems, but that's another story. If Ganassi employs people on his team that are willing to take those actions, it's his problem, not Nascar's. Maybe Owner should fire guys who do those things and wouldn't be a problem.
Posted by: Michael | Aug 31, 2005 8:09:07 AM
Hitting the driver is necessary as punishment. The #41 should have been disqualified and suspended for several races instead of merely fined.
Posted by: Mike Daly | Aug 31, 2005 11:27:38 AM
There are certain things that will merit a heavy penalty, that officials won't tolerate fooling around with - tires, engines and fuel are among them.
Posted by: David | Aug 31, 2005 2:10:35 PM
So if they snuck a cheater engine in his car unknowingly to him...won by a lap he should keep all his points? That's not fair. Stickier tires is huge! He knew. That's the oldest trick in the book. I just drive I don't know anything.
Posted by: scott | Sep 23, 2005 9:44:53 PM
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