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May 01, 2007
Busch's HANS device cracked in wreck
With all the talk about safety NASCAR does, they've got a new concern. During Kyle Busch's wild wreck at Dega on Saturday during the Busch race, the HANS device did what it was supposed to do during the violent wreck, but they also found a crack in the device, something they didn't expect.
NASCAR has sent the device back to the manufacturer to have them check it over and see why it happened.
So far there has been no speculation as to why it happened, nor where on the device the crack was, but NASCAR needs answers fairly quick with two more restrictor plate races left that are prone to having these kinds of wrecks.
Nothing has been said about when they expect any answers back from the manufacturer, but if I was NASCAR, I would want answers back before the Pepsi 400 so that the possible problem can be addressed.
Luckily, it still did its job and Kyle Busch wasn't injured, but a crack in a "safety device" is a cause for concern and NASCAR needs to find out why and they need to do it fast.
Your thoughts?
May 1, 2007 in NASCAR | Permalink
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I just bought a 20% hans for me in my wells
coyote road race dirt mostly. I have been concerned about the SUDDEN STOP off a cliff
or tree my seat is flat and ridgid ,the seat back is 10% or so.
I was trying it in the car. Is it normal for it to move forward with decent restriction untill it stops. when the chest
`legs` stop on my chest?, I was wondering is it supposed to have instant stopping of my head??? I do have a long ass neck, like a stork.
Martini Racing Pikes Peak sprint #88
Posted by: sprintpikes peak | Jul 6, 2007 9:15:14 PM
Mike Daley,
You are either delirious or highly unintelligent.
If you knew anything about racing and crashing and crash mechanics you wouldn't have made such unintelligent comments.
Cars,seat belts,helmets,seats and yes HANS are made to save the driver in an impact. But guess what? After a serious impact the car is dented, the seat belts are frayed and sometimes the helmet is cracked. Guess what Mike none of those failed. They did their job by absorbing the impact instead of the driver. This is why the drivers don't get hurt that bad in huge impacts. And guess what else Mike? The seat belts are replaced, the helmets replaced as is most of the car. But you dont hear about that ever do you? Why? Because its normal procedure..helmets crack and belts fray from impacts ALL THE TIME. Car fenders and bodywork breaks away and dents ALL THE TIME. The HANS is built so well that it hardly ever cracks..but when it does its BIG news. Use some common sense and you will see that the HANS was made to SAVE lives. It has done that. Why bash a product that has saved injury and lives without having drawbacks?
Mike Daley if you looked at driver injuries/fatalities (especially neck and spinal injuries) in the respective formulas you would see that every series has had a drastic decrease in those areas since the HANS became mandatory. But obviously you opened your mouth before you looked at the data. People will die with a HANS. Its motor racing...it can and will happen. But I think every driver is better off with a HANS. Knowing what I know I would even say that a HANS is more important than a helmet. But what do I know.
Posted by: Lewis | Jun 20, 2007 10:07:48 AM
The simple way to make the races better would be to remove the restricter plates, the wing, and the ground effects enhancment.
That would put the drivers in control of how fast he goes and still keep from spinning out. Anything to get away from "never off the throttle" for all the green laps. Give them something to do and think about besides just steering. Flatter tracks would help. Soon NASCAR will be wanting new tracks to be like the old carnival motorcycle motordrones, using centrifical force to keep the cars from sliding down the banking.
Posted by: Modified fan | May 3, 2007 7:29:18 PM
Kurt - Kyle threw beer cans at the 24?
Posted by: the6and9 | May 2, 2007 11:49:29 PM
Kathy,
Inbred rednecks( those whom thru the cans) what should you expect.. Wow 14 people banned. Wonderful job Dega... Sure
Posted by: Kurt2 | May 2, 2007 6:26:15 PM
Yes, Kurt, the post was about the safety of the HANS device.
And from what I saw, many cars were hit with the cans, not just the 24, they didn't seem to care who or what they hit.
Posted by: Kathy | May 2, 2007 6:12:19 PM
Daly,
I think I was taking about the HANS in safety. Didnt see in my post where it was mentioned regarding the airdams?
Next the powerplant is slower now period. NASCAR and inspection, beat alot of tweaking we do..
Daly you are on such a "marketing ploy" (HANS and COT).You studied watched and seen the sport? Have you sat in, looked in the COY vs. the COT? I addressed the cage etc. IN THE CAR.
I think was a safety post, am I correct Kathy?
Didnt know we had Dega fans whom hit more than the 24 with cans , yeah more than one car was hit. Ours was as well.
Posted by: Kurt2 | May 2, 2007 6:05:16 PM
Kyle switching out for a new device after every race would keep the damned things from cracking.
I don't like Kyle, but you have to give him one thing. He's by far the best shitcan a perfectly good race car wreckin' motherf***** out there.
This boy needs airbags. Screw the HANS.
Posted by: the6and9 | May 2, 2007 5:03:18 PM
Mike,
You provide no factual evidence to back up your claims. What evidence do you have that the HANS device is ineffective? Just saying it because you like to go against the grain, doesn't make you right. Again, as usual you are stretching the truth. The HANS device has and always will be a safety device for helping to prevent one specific injury, a basal skull fracture. As far as 2001 goes, HANS had nothing to do with Earnhardt dying. Drivers in the Cup series had already started wearing the HANS after the death of Adam Petty. Nascar and the rest of the drivers just woke up finally and realized that after four drivers died from that injury in 2 years, maybe they might want to think about utilizing a safety feature that would help prevent that specific injury.
Slowing the cars down does 15mph will do little do change the risk of a basal skull fracture. Adam was killed at much lower rate of speed. It is not the extreme speed that causes the injury, it is the sudden stop. It could happen at 80mph.
I wish you would back up you sanctimonious gab with facts. Thankfully most realize what your about, lots of huff and puff, but no truth.
Why you watch Nascar I don't know. I've been watching racing for 25 years and the sport has never remotely resembled what you wish it to be.
Posted by: Michael | May 2, 2007 1:39:45 PM
freak, racing is not about going as fast as you can, it's about getting to the finish line first. Why do you need 180 MPH at a place like Charlotte when 165 should suffice?
GenO, maybe in that time you spent trying to get speed out of your racecars, you should have paused and considered that maybe the sport is better off cutting speeds instead of letting them increase. BTW, I'm a race fan, not a Gordon fan.
Michael, the basics like helmets, seatbelts, etc. are what matter most, not add-on stuff like the HANS. "Where is all this marketing of the HANS?" It was manifest in all the coverage about safety in 2000 and 2001; the coverage was one big sanctimonious infomercial for the HANS.
Chris, it's pure luck that we haven't yet had a fatality with the HANS. The proof I have that it serves no purpose is the fact that it's luck, not the HANS, that is why we haven't had a fatality with it yet. I don't want the HANS because it is used as a substitute for drastically slowing the cars down - just as the roof flaps were used to avoid slowing the cars down.
Posted by: Mike Daly | May 2, 2007 12:48:37 PM
its funny how you all argue about this hans devise like your opinion matters. its there cause nascar says it has to be.does it work does it not work. who cares its like going to work or cathlick school, you wear what your told to wear. and as far as slowing the cars down thats just rediculous ITS RACING your suppose to go as fast as possible if you get hurt than oh well thats the chance you took when you got in the car or if you went to watch the race. buy the way if you ever bought a ticket read the back, nascar or the track owners are not responsable if you get hurt or killed, its a risk you take buy going there and sitting next to 43 race cars RACING at top speed.
Posted by: freak | May 2, 2007 10:06:07 AM
matter of fact yes I was at Dega....and have been many times before...and NO I didnt throw beer cans...I was to busy dealing with the jerk behind me stomping cans and splattering everyone...
As to Racing and Speed... its obvious the NEW school NASCAR fans...dont know shit..just make remarks and claim being experts...
Ivew raced many years bikes and stock cars.. and if speed wasnt racing why the hell do the spend so much on getting it..although... with the NEW NASCAr.. its understandable... but I say turn 'em loose let em race with all the speed they can muster..and stop this horse shit about the 200 mph barrier..gees in no way are the cars of tomorrow even close to those old 71 superbirds or the chevys for that matter.. no wonder they took off when they flipped... Daly gotta be a gordon or busch fan ..its in his voice... I noticed the high pitch LOL
Posted by: GenO | May 2, 2007 9:58:40 AM
Kyle should just get a special "pencil neck geek" model of the HANS device!! One that will be longer for this pencil neck and while he is at it, he should get that shit of his chin, guy looks like a goof with that shit/peach fuzz on his chin!!
Posted by: Aggie | May 2, 2007 12:50:29 AM
Where is all this marketing of the HANS device we are being inendated with. The HANS device has been around since the early 1980's. The guy who invented it is a doctor of biomechanical engineering and a professor. He still keeps his day job last I heard. I haven't heard anyone claim that racing is now safe because of the HANS device. The only thing it has ever been advertised as is another safety feature that will help prevent a specific risk of injury, basal skull fractures. An injury that just so happens to be the cause of the most recent deaths in stock car racing. It has been tested extensively off the track and has been attributed to helping save lives in several instances on the track.
Being able to walk away from an accident always involves luck. But wearing a HANS device, seatbelts, etc. helps reduce the odds.
Posted by: Michael | May 1, 2007 11:50:38 PM
Mike Daly,
This is Kinda long but, I'm just curious. You are arguing that the HANS device is not needed. Are you arguing because: a) it has no purpose, or b) you believe it to be dangerous?
Looking back, there were more fatalities before the HANS than after.
For instance:
1991 J.D. McDuffie
1992 Clifford Allison
1994 Neil Bonnett and Rodney Orr
1997 John Nemechek
2000 Adam Petty, Kenny Irwin, Jr., and Tony Roper
2001 Dale Earnhardt and Blaise Alexander
In a span of 10 years there were 10 fatal accidents. Thats a driver a season. From 2002 - present, thankfully, there have been no deaths. You have to admit, Mike, Nascar is on track as far as safety is concerned, and the HANS must be doing something right.
Either way, you have absolutely NO proof whatsoever that it is in any way harming the drivers, or that it has no purpose. The bottom line is, there are no perfect safety devices out there, on the track or on the highway. Things happen.
I believe that the HANS device's that have broken in the past were past there life expectancy. I owned a SIMPSON helmet that recommended that it only be used a few years before it needed to be replaced due to normal wear and tear.
While I don't agree with a lot of what Nascar does, safety is one area that I applaud them for.
Posted by: Chris | May 1, 2007 11:42:03 PM
Any
Device that may keep one racer alive is good!!
The Hans is one of mansy safety device's that are in use today.
Until something better comes along why are we even questing the use of the Hans. So what it cracked, was ot iver stressed, abused, manufacting defect we do not know. BUT to good thing Bush walked away from the wreck.
Posted by: Dwight | May 1, 2007 11:39:19 PM
I think helmets are overated. A ball cap turned backwards and a t-shirt are all you need to race. You shouldn't get safety equipment until you "pay your dues".
Posted by: jeff | May 1, 2007 10:54:53 PM
Fan#5, from the wording of your post, it sounds like you thought I said the HANS wasn't necessary. I agree with you - if I were racing, I would use every means necessary to be safe; however, people make it sounds\ like the HANS is the Holy Grail of safety, and it's not. There is nothing that will prevent someone from dying. THAT is my point.
Posted by: Ironman | May 1, 2007 8:35:47 PM
Ironman, everytime I strap in, I know the risks, and I do everything within my means of making my cars safe...when I'm in my racecar I feel 100% safer than in a street car. If I hit the wall and decelerate from 120 to zero...I pray to God that my HANS does what it was intended to do (stop the the basil skull fracture)
Posted by: Fan #5 | May 1, 2007 7:44:23 PM
Actually, the reason it cracked was because that is probably the only HANS he's used all year.
Which means it's been through, what...16-17 hard crashes so far this season? Yep - the kid's a talent alright. Premature ejac is the phrase that comes to mind when they show the shrub.
If they would make it out of the material his head is made of, then they would have the hardest HANS ever made.
Posted by: the6and9 | May 1, 2007 7:43:40 PM
Ironman, thanks.
What I don't understand about people slamming me about the HANS is they seem to think I want drivers to die out there. All I've said is the HANS isn't the answer and that it gets pushed onto the sport by belligerent marketing ("use the HANS or you die!" is the basic approach).
Those who call it as it is (even when we disagree, I do admire your own forthrightness) usually get slammed because there is always a go-along-to-get-along attitude in the sport.
Posted by: Mike Daly | May 1, 2007 5:45:35 PM
Hey, Mike Daly!
Good posts. WE don't agree on everything, but you are dead on (no pun intended)with your comments about the HANS and the other safety improvements. Racing will NEVER be death-proof, and it amazes me how some of these people think that is possible.
I also agree with you about slowing the cars down. It's ridiculous that we have restrictor plates at Talladega and Daytona, yet the drivers are going at much more dangerous speeds at Charlotte and Atlanta. I'm still amazed that Nascar hasn't done anything about the speeds there.
Yes, because of your years of being a Nascar fan, I value your opinion on here a hell of a lot more than some of these other folks. I have yet to figure out why you get slammed like you do. Maybe because you tell it like it is. Come to think of it, maybe that's why I'm not really popular on here, either. Oh well, like I give a fuck!
Ironman
Posted by: Ironman | May 1, 2007 5:28:57 PM
Why should NASCAR be concerned?
It was Kyle's HANS.
;)
Posted by: the6and9 | May 1, 2007 5:22:21 PM
fan - you miss that Earnhardt wanted pull-up belts instead of the pull-down belts Simpson was supplying him.
CalifCarl, when you're lucky more than good with the HANS, then it's not doing more good than harm.
Posted by: Mike Daly | May 1, 2007 4:17:27 PM
Bill Simpson told Dale Sr how to mount his seat belts correctly. That didn't require "buying more stuff", just common sense.
Posted by: fan | May 1, 2007 3:56:52 PM
So what, it cracked, throw it away and get a new one. In the Busch race crash it was a violent roll over, not the type of crash the hans device is mainly protecting against.
The Hutchen Device, now there was a device that could have caused more harm than good. But the Hans is worthy! More good than harm come with it's use, no matter what MD says.
Safer Barriers is the best new device going, but no need to say nothing else is needed.
Kathy it cracked, so what, it wasn't design for the kind of crash. It was designed for the Cup car crash he had on Sunday.
Posted by: CalifCarl | May 1, 2007 3:41:38 PM
Michael, as if you have "real" information that means anything. History IS real information, and history showed they didn't particularly need the HANS before. For what it's worth I've been in bad wrecks before, with and without airbags, the HANS, etc.
"It doesn't mean they're ineffective." Stop it Michael, it DOES MEAN THEY'RE INEFFECTIVE, it's LUCK, not the devices, that is why drivers have yet to be killed even when wearing the HANS.
kurt2, slowing the cars? Where aside from the plate tracks have they done anything that slowed the cars? Why aren't they stuck at 165 or at the most 170 on intermediate superspeedways? "We live in a box with the powerplant on these cars." And what do you do? You beat the box, because the speeds keep increasing.
The COT isn't safer than the flush-airdam/spoilered cars, it's just marketed that way. And yes, the HANS is an overmarketed ploy, more by its supplier than by NASCAR. All these safety advocates have in common that they never argue for safety changes that do not involve buying new equipment (invariably equipment that they market - when did Bill Simpson, for one, argue for a safety change that didn't require buying more stuff from his company?)
"Do you know how many Gs he hit the wall with?" Offhand I don't; I do know they've cracked 100 easily in more than a few wrecks.
Posted by: Mike Daly | May 1, 2007 3:31:04 PM
First Gen0 really funny. Point is the wreck was the wreck.. Were you at Dega and one of the ones throwing cans and hitting many of our cars? I asked, as your comment seems the same line of thought.
Daly,
we have been agreeing for weeks now, but now we dont.Slowing the cars? Umm your love and studying should have showed you that has in fact been done.We live in a little box with the powerpplant in the cars.
I took my job to be with the sport and have for many years.First race was SR. @ Daytona.I was a fan prior and looked at the sport, its not anyways the same at all. Cars are being slowed by NASCAR.
All due respect you hate the COT, I know that. But the damn thing is alot safer cage etc than the COY.
The HANS is not in fact a "overmarketed ploy by CUP". Not at all..
Do you know how many G's he hit the wall with? I will be glad to tell you if you dont.
Posted by: kurt2 | May 1, 2007 3:03:41 PM
Just like I thought Mike, no real information, just your opinion. Have you been involved in a head on collission while both wearing and not wearing a HANS device, thus giving you first hand knowledge of what the experience of wearing HANS device is?
Yep, some HANS devices have cracked. Just like helmets have cracked. It doesn't mean they are ineffective in preventing injury. Safety devices aren't bullet proof. They will sucumb to stresses when extreme forces are applied to them. Kyle Busch was not killed wearing the HANS and it did do it's job. He will just have to spend $1K for a new one.
Yep Mike, many drivers walked away from accidents before the HANS device. Just like many drivers walked away from accidents before air bags were invented. These safety features just keep more people alive. Hard to argue with that.
Do you have airbags in your car Mike? Do you wear a seatbelt when you drive?
Posted by: Michael | May 1, 2007 2:25:47 PM
Michael, what makes me an "expert" is that I've lived through many years of this sport, studied it, and don't fall in love with the technological breakthrough du jours that periodically come through. We've all seen thousands of wrecks where drivers weren't wearing the HANS and didn't suffer basilar skull fractures, and the fact the HANS has cracked on more than one occassion shows it is oversold as a safety device. "The HANS saved Bruno Junqueira in his 2001 accident." Oh, and the thousands who survived such accidents before suddenly were doing to die because they didn't have it?
We need to stop romanticizing the HANS and face the fact that slowing the cars is the more effective safety change the sport needs.
Fan#5 - you want better safe than sorry, then lobby the sanctioning body to take 25 MPH out of the speed of the cars.
Posted by: Mike Daly | May 1, 2007 2:14:57 PM
Sorry MD, But I WILL wear a HANS...better safe than sorry
Posted by: Fan #5 | May 1, 2007 1:55:48 PM
Mike Daly,
What makes you an expert in that you can lecture us on the HANS device's effectiveness and tell us to doubt its ability. Are you a doctor of medicine or biomechanical engineering, thus allowing you to speak professionally on the physics of basal skull fractures? What research have you conducted to make these claims? Have you followed the evolution of the HANS device since it's invention in the early 80's? Did you speak with the medical researches who studied the accidents of Petty and Irwin and concluded that a HANS device most likely would have prevented their deaths? How about the doctors who credit the HANS for saving the life of Bruno Junqueira in his 2001 accident.
Get off your soapbox.
Posted by: Michael | May 1, 2007 1:36:19 PM
Didn’t that ole big Monte of Tim Richmond’s way back when do 230mph somewhere in a wide open test in Road and Track??
Posted by: Aggie | May 1, 2007 1:18:07 PM
Agree with Mike on that one, I think it was Allisons wreck into the catchfence and Elliots 212MPH qualifying speed that scared the crap out of NASCAR and their insurance company(s).
An airborne car flying into the stands and killing fans would be the end of NASCAR for sure. It seems they picked 200 as the magic number to stay below to keep that danger at a manageable minimum.
Posted by: Fedex Guy | May 1, 2007 12:26:50 PM
Geno, racing was NEVER about raw speed. It was about getting to the checkered flag first. This is why the "fastest car" rarely wins races. 200 MPH is unsafe, regardless of whether or not they have the SAFER or any of that. The sport had to learn that the hard way in the 1980s.
"I came here to race, what did you come here to do?" was perfunctory smack from Earnhardt and as such is not a legitimate argument.
Posted by: Mike Daly | May 1, 2007 12:18:39 PM
Geees, Racing is ALL about speed and who is fastest first at the line. With some of these attitudes, why not just put them in wheel chairs to race?
Folks lets get back to racing as it has and should always be, the faster the better.
All these devices have proven the past few years to allow better safety at these speeds..if not even more.
I dream of the day we can see well over 200MPH racing again, and I think with the new Cot car and the inside word of NASCAR removing the plates it may well become a reality.
As Big E said to Jarrett a few years back regarding the plates; "I came here to race..what did you come here to do?"
Posted by: Geno | May 1, 2007 12:13:31 PM
Fedex guy, I can buy the SAFER barriers and some of the other stuff, but I saw thousands of racers walk away from hits without ever wearing the HANS. I've always been annoyed by the safety arguments that are basically belligerent marketing of stuff like the HANS; how come safety arguments never involve alternatives to buying new hardware?
If they really want to improve safety, take 25 MPH out of the speed of the cars; it isn't foolproof, but it's bound to do more real good than these other things. We don't need 180 MPH at a place like Charlotte, we only need 160-5; I'm stunned they're letting the cars crack 200 in trap speeds at Talladega now; they can get by with drafting speeds in the 185 range.
Posted by: Mike Daly | May 1, 2007 12:02:45 PM
I don't know Mike, I think the point could be made that the HANS, Safer barriers, and all the other stuff that has been mandated the past few years has probably made a difference, even if they aren't perfect.
Mark Martin, Davir Reuitmann, and Shrub could have been a lot worse off without those things, just to think of 3 recent slams we have seen.
Perhaps it is a bit oversold, but I think all those things together have saved a lot of pain.
Posted by: Fedex Guy | May 1, 2007 11:22:11 AM
The HANS has long been oversold for its safety effectiveness. I vaguely remember that there were other HANS collars that cracked after wrecks. The sport has been more lucky than good with the HANS.
"Oh, but he'd have died if he didn't wear the HANS" is an answer I frequently get when I talk about it to others. Sorry, but that argument isn't worth buying - I don't believe in the HANS and neither should anyone else.
Posted by: Mike Daly | May 1, 2007 11:08:00 AM
I don't reckon Kyle is sad to leave Talladega. Dang, he had a rotten weekend. Not that I keep track of such things, but can you think of someone having two worse wrecks in a 24 hour period?
Posted by: Doug in CA | May 1, 2007 11:00:55 AM
well they do have to make a special HANS for "possum".....His head and neck are in no way in human form.. so I think its more than likely the standard HANS...wasn't faulty.
Posted by: GenO | May 1, 2007 9:47:54 AM
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