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Robby Gordon was still wrong
By: Dennis Terry
I think that Robby Gordon should have restarted Saturday's Busch race in Montreal as the leader of the race. The ESPN replays clearly show the yellow flag waving BEFORE Ambrose spun Gordon.
However, what I think doesn't influence the outcome of races. NASCAR does not use ESPN replays to determine driver positions under caution... maybe they should?
NASCAR uses "scoring loops" installed at various points in the track. For instance, most 1.5 mile oval tracks have approximately six loops installed at equal intervals (that’s my understanding).
Since this was a Busch series race, on a road course track and in another country, I don't know what sort of scoring loop interval NASCAR had in place. BUT, regardless, NASCAR determined that Gordon was to restart the race in the 13th position which brings me to my point.
NASCAR made the wrong decision, but NASCAR rules are still rules (I know, I opened the door with that one - but humor me this time). NASCAR is the boss, they made the call for Robby to restart the race in 13th position and that's what he should have done regardless of what he and the rest of us thought.
I appreciate Robby's passion and competitiveness and I can offer the guy some sympathy for getting screwed in the whole deal, BUT in professional sports as with most every other aspect of our lives, we are expected to behave like adults even when we get dealt a bad hand.
Obeying the rules is a significant part of growing up and being a man. Obeying the rules is also a significant part of having a successful racing career.
You just can't throw a temper tantrum and ignore officiating whether you are right or not.
I think NASCAR stands out above all other professional sports because they hold their drivers to higher expectations than the NFL, NBA, etc. If NASCAR had not suspended Robby, what message does that send to the kids (and a lot of adults) who idealize these drivers???
NASCAR made the wrong call for scoring Gordon in 13th place, but NASCAR made the right call to suspend him for disregarding the rules of the sport.
DT
August 7, 2007 | Permalink
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Comments
Very well said.
Posted by: M. B. Voelker | Aug 7, 2007 4:05:06 PM
DT
I agree with you.All I could say was "Robby,this is a Busch race,and I'm sure your Mom told you 2 wrongs do not make a right".Nascar took this one step farther when they tried to make 3 wrongs make a right.I don't think anything should go from series to series.This was the Busch series.Sit him down there,make him sit out the remainder of the year if they want,but don't sit him out in the cup series.JMO
By the way,I want to say thank you for sharing your time and views with us.I know how hard it must be at times.Thanks!!!!!
Posted by: Short Lady | Aug 7, 2007 4:11:49 PM
Just like Robby Gordon said on Sunday, "two wrongs don't make a right". If the scoring loop said Robby was 2nd at the time of caution that's where he should have restarted. He should not have been punished for being spun out under yellow. Again, I reference that Kevin Harvick spun out Jamie McMurray under caution on the last lap at Talladega and McMurray was allowed to come back through the field and re-gain his 5th place position.
Yes, NASCAR screwed up and made a terrible call. I mentioned this in Kathy's blog and you are mirroring the same idea, even though NASCAR's call was wrong that doesn't give Robby Gordon the right to take matters into his own hands and ignore the call. You can't ignore the black flag, run out the race without serving the penalty, and expect to get rewarded for it in a post-race protest.
NASCAR also screwed up by letting that race restart with Robby Gordon in the imporoper position in line. He robbed Marcos Ambrose and Andy Pilgrim of a chance to win the race and he should have never been in a position to do so. They should have waved off the restart and waited for Robby to fall back in line before they waved the green.
NASCAR and Robby Gordon were both in the wrong, but two wrongs certainly don't make a right.
Posted by: stricklinfan82 | Aug 7, 2007 4:19:43 PM
Stricklinfan82-
I'm going to have to "stay on the fence" with your comment about NASCAR shouldn't have even restarted the race with Robby up front.
You are right they shouldn't have restarted the race until everyone was in the correct order.
BUT, a lot of drivers contending for the win didn't have enough fuel to just ride in circles while NASCAR tried to talk some sense into Gordon.
Those guys didn't deserve to be punished for Robby's antics.
AND, it sure did make for a much more exciting finish watching Gordon crash Ambrose, act like he was leading the race and try to top Harvick with his victory burnout.
DT
Posted by: DT | Aug 7, 2007 4:36:42 PM
Time for an independent firm to officiate the races. Nascar has to much baggage. They got mad a Robby because he protests. Maybe they should just get out of the loop and put some credibility in their product.
Posted by: Lou | Aug 7, 2007 4:47:40 PM
DT, not sure why they couldn't keep circling the track, they burn less fuel then they do racing. If Robby doesn't either get off the track or go to the position that he was told to go to. End the race under caution and let the other drivers who wanted to race for a win and the fans who wanted to see a exciting finish beat the s%&t out of his lame aZZ.
Posted by: jeff | Aug 7, 2007 5:13:40 PM
Robby was never going to win this one, DT. Nobody wins but NASCAR in a dispute. Robby admitted he was wrong for failing to comply with the black flag but he took a stand on a blown call. He took his lumps and will probably take a few more but he didn't compromise his own integrity.
Based on some of the unscientific polls on the subject that I've seen on the 'net a majority of voting fans understand exactly what happened on Saturday. It was not NASCAR's finest hour either.
Posted by: Barb g | Aug 7, 2007 5:20:51 PM
I think it would've been more fun watching Marcos and Robby wrestling each other for the win but that's just my opinion.
Posted by: Barb g | Aug 7, 2007 5:22:15 PM
Barb g_
"Integrity"??? Seriously??? Now, seriously. Where is the integrity here?
The only true integrity in this whole situation is NASCAR's suspension of Gordon for blatantly ignoring a directive by the officials...
Integrity would be Gordon restarting in 13th place, winning the race with 4 laps to go (or whatever it was) and then standing in victory lane and saying,...
"Hey NASCAR screwed me and my team on that caution deal, but we took the higher road and instead of me loosing my tempor and doing something stupid to hurt my team and sponsors, I sucked it up and kicked everyone's ass anyway! I'd like to thank all the guys back in the shop for their hard work everyday and every night and I want everyone to know that I'm going to sit down with NASCAR and work with them to come up with a better system for scoring drivers so that our fans can enjoy a fair and exciting race EVERY week"
That's integrity!
DT
Posted by: DT | Aug 7, 2007 5:35:10 PM
From what I understand, at the time of the yellow Ambrose was in the lead, the TV showed Robby pass him for the lead but I believe the yellow was already out before that, I might be wrong. Nascar should've put him in 2nd and been done with it. I personally thing Robby punted Marcus outta frustration which was chickenshit, should've raced him clean, especially after he was TOLD what was up. It is what it is. Shannon Spake is HOT!
Posted by: Spike | Aug 7, 2007 5:39:58 PM
Spike-
Yeah, it's hard to tell from the angle of that TV shot who was leading. I think it could go either way, although, from my Lazy Boy, it really looked like Gordon had him.
Either way, the boy shouldn't have had to start in 13th, because the field should have been frozen before the spin.
DT
Posted by: DT | Aug 7, 2007 5:46:02 PM
NASCAR got the call wrong. Robby should have restarted 2nd. That said they made their decision and said that Robby had to restart 13th. Why they allowed the race to restart with Robby in second is beyond me. Everyone knew that he was going to spin Ambrose out. So that wasn't just on Robby, that's on NASCAR as well. I think France Helton, Pemberton and company should have fined themselves for that as well as Robby. Red flag the race if there is that much concern over fuel but don't restart a race with someone in the wrong position especially when everyone knows that he's going to take out the guy in front of him who just happens to be the leader. I know that NASCAR can't get it right every time but this was one of those times where they could have and didn't. Shame on Robby for spinning Ambrose out but shame on NASCAR as well for letting it happen.
Posted by: Ken | Aug 7, 2007 6:36:03 PM
The genesis of this whole controversy is the rule banning racing to the yellow; we wouldn't have this controversy to the same extent if they raced back to the stripe; then the leader would clearly be known. NASCAR has backed itself into a corner because they can't defend this rule yet they keep it because they were spooked by what happened at New Hampshire in 2003 - it obviously never occurs to them that the rule was never the problem, it was specific drivers.
This is the umpteenth time (I've lost track of the specific number of times) the wrong winner came about because of not racing to the yellow - it's happened at least three times at Talladega (2004, 2005, 2006, even 2003 if you count that there was a yellow with seven to go and Ward Burton led at the stripe), it happened at Michigan at least once (2004), and it's happened at some other places.
Rip Robby Gordon for what he did, but rip NASCAR even more, because they are in the wrong by not racing to the caution. Go back to racing to the yellow, guys, don't give me this safety overkill BS justifying it.
Posted by: Mike Daly | Aug 7, 2007 6:42:43 PM
Hey DT,
Sometimes I don't mind being wrong. This is one of those times.
Robby stuck up for himself. Something no one has the "stuff" to do. How wonderful for Nascar if Ambrose won that race. Well, Robby did not get what he wanted but neither did Nascar.
Nascar still wins cause they still get the press and a chance to spank Robby.
Posted by: Larry | Aug 7, 2007 6:44:32 PM
I disagree with you Mike. Saftey needs to be the first priority in racing. That's why the rule is there. You can't have drivers racing back to the caution for saftey reasons. If you want them to run full speed with a car spun out in the middle of the track then why even throw a caution flag?
Just because someone may be ahead of the wreck doesn't mean that he should be running at full speed and trying to make a pass. That would be an unfair advantage to the drivers ahead of the wreck and a disadvantage to those that have to slow down to avoid the wreck. Some guys get to race for position because they're ahead of the wreck but others can't because they have to slow down to avoid it? That's just unfair if you ask me.
Posted by: Ken | Aug 7, 2007 6:59:01 PM
Larry-
I'm with you, I don't mind being wrong either, but sticking up for yourself and disrespecting the rules of the game are two different scenarios.
Robby and the whole world knew that when NASCAR directed him to 13th place that was their final decision. They argued their point to NASCAR several times and several times NASCAR said, "13th".
Arguing the point was sticking up for yourself. Defying the rules of the game, no matter how fair or, in this case correct they are isn't sticking up for yourself, because in the end, you get suspended, fined, embarrassed, and cost your team money in their pockets.
There is a point where common sense and being smart enough to "see the big" picture over rides temper tantrums and defiance in the face of authority.
Absolutely!... you should always stick up for yourself, but you should never do it in a manner that adversely affects your team and ultimately your own success.
Just my two cents worth (well, maybe that was three or four cents worth there).
Keep read'n bud!
DT
Posted by: DT | Aug 7, 2007 7:02:18 PM
It's obvious that Nascar can't figure out how to enforce their own rules. If they couldn't come up with a better solution than restarting the race with Robby in second (such as red flagging it until they got Robby out of 2nd or out of the race), they deserved exactly the confusion that happened. I'm not saying that what Robby did was right, but it seems the larger share of embarrassment should be at brian France's feet.
Posted by: SallyB | Aug 7, 2007 7:54:45 PM
Ken, you're not making any sense. The rule is not there for safety because there wasn't a safety issue that could not be addressed in another way. It is there to justify more power to the control booth. Unfair? That's a ridiculous argument.
Your argument is like Gordon and Biffle's ridiculous whine after the Daytona 500 wreck - they said they were waiting for the yellow to fly to slow down, as though they were forced to stay on the gas and plow into a wreck they see directly ahead of them. They're so idiotic they need NASCAR to tell them to slow down?
The reality is this - racing to the caution was not the danger zone it is portrayed as because of this rule. The New Hampshire incident in 2003 was not the fault of the rules, it was the fault of Michael Waltrip.
Go back to racing to the yellow.
Posted by: Mike Daly | Aug 7, 2007 8:07:43 PM
Remember, two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do.....go fast, turn left, repeat!!! While Robby is not the most popular driver, sit him out of the Busch Series for what he did during a Busch race.
Posted by: Chip | Aug 7, 2007 8:42:28 PM
Dennis,
I'm going to have to disagree with you on the issue of extending that last yellow flag to put Robby Gordon in the correct position. NASCAR should not make decisions like that based on how it might inconvenience the few cars that were running low on fuel. If NASCAR's reasoning for not extending that yellow flag was to save the 59, 88, and 21 cars that were low on fuel that would be totally unfair to the rest of the field. Every crew on pit road knows there's a possibility of a green-white-checkered finish, so if the race ran a few laps longer than its scheduled distance, "that's racing". Those guys understood the gamble they were taking.
All NASCAR calls should be done unbiasedly. Every call on whether or not to throw a yellow flag or how many laps a caution period should last is going to help some drivers in the field and hurt others. If NASCAR made those decisions based on how many drivers those decisions would adversly effect, that would be totally unfair.
I'm not saying NASCAR hasn't done that in the past though. NASCAR screwed Dale Jarrett out of the Brickyard 400 in 1998 when they were afraid to throw a caution for a stalled car on the track because DJ had a lap on the field because he was the only driver that hadn't pitted under green yet during that pit cycle. Jarrett waited 3 or 4 laps for the yellow and then ran out of gas because of it. After he had finally coasted to pit road and the cycle of stops was complete, the yellow finally came out for that same stalled car and Jarrett was left 4 laps down. He did make all of the laps up (with no lucky dog) but simply ran out of time to win the race.
What they did to Jarrett in '98 was unfair, and if fuel mileage concern was the reasoning for not waving off that final restart that was unfair too. NASCAR should call the race fairly, and not worry about how those decisions will help some drivers and hurt others.
Posted by: stricklinfan82 | Aug 7, 2007 8:51:10 PM
Strickland82-
Good point. That's probably a pretty fair way to look at it.
Just bare in mind that was MY speculation and input. I don't know for a fact that NASCAR actually considered that while making their decision.
DT
Posted by: DT | Aug 7, 2007 9:09:44 PM
But "ain't" it cool that Marcos is going to be driving Robby Gordans car at the Glenn! Robby stepped it up there!
Posted by: darlene | Aug 7, 2007 9:24:03 PM
Dennis,
I understand that was merely your speculation, none of us never know the REAL reason NASCAR does anything, LOL.
The only other possible justification for not waving off the restart might be their precedence with "three-wide restarts". Sometimes the lapped cars get three wide fighting for positioning right before a restart because they think a car that is many laps down should be behind a car that is only one lap down. NASCAR doesn't wave off restarts in those cases, they just let the race restart and black flag the cars that were lined up 3-wide.
Although the circumstances are quite different, they might have just applied that same logic in the Robby Gordon incident. I can only remember one other incident in the past where a driver ignored NASCAR's orders and lined up in a position they weren't supposed to. In the fall of 1990 at Richmond, Harry Gant (driving in relief of Hut Stricklin) was a lap down going into the final restart on lap 400 (a green and white flag together restart). NASCAR ordered him to restart on the inside lane (back then there was no single-file restart rule in the last 10 laps of a race), but Gant ignored NASCAR's orders and restarted on the outside lane between race leaders Dale Earnhardt and Mark Martin because he thought he was on the lap (and claimed that he had radio problems and couldn't hear NASCAR's orders). In that instance NASCAR also let the race restart anyway (of course back then there was no green-white-checkered rule, the race would have ended under yellow if they waved off that restart) and Hut Stricklin was given a one-lap penalty for his relief driver ignoring NASCAR's orders about where to restart.
Posted by: stricklinfan82 | Aug 7, 2007 9:37:13 PM
Correction, I meant to say Harry Gant thought he was on the LEAD LAP, so that's why he restarted on the outside line in that 1990 race at Richmond. Oops, LOL.
Posted by: stricklinfan82 | Aug 7, 2007 9:39:48 PM
Mike you're just wrong on this. There's no reason for them to race back to the caution. Period. What good does it do any ways if it's not the last lap? If the second place guy is faster than the leader then let him make the pass on the restart.
The drivers like the rule because it allows the saftey crew to get to the accident faster so I don't see why you have a problem with it.
Posted by: Ken | Aug 7, 2007 11:08:46 PM
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