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Robby Gordon was still wrong
By: Dennis Terry
I think that Robby Gordon should have restarted Saturday's Busch race in Montreal as the leader of the race. The ESPN replays clearly show the yellow flag waving BEFORE Ambrose spun Gordon.
However, what I think doesn't influence the outcome of races. NASCAR does not use ESPN replays to determine driver positions under caution... maybe they should?
NASCAR uses "scoring loops" installed at various points in the track. For instance, most 1.5 mile oval tracks have approximately six loops installed at equal intervals (that’s my understanding).
Since this was a Busch series race, on a road course track and in another country, I don't know what sort of scoring loop interval NASCAR had in place. BUT, regardless, NASCAR determined that Gordon was to restart the race in the 13th position which brings me to my point.
NASCAR made the wrong decision, but NASCAR rules are still rules (I know, I opened the door with that one - but humor me this time). NASCAR is the boss, they made the call for Robby to restart the race in 13th position and that's what he should have done regardless of what he and the rest of us thought.
I appreciate Robby's passion and competitiveness and I can offer the guy some sympathy for getting screwed in the whole deal, BUT in professional sports as with most every other aspect of our lives, we are expected to behave like adults even when we get dealt a bad hand.
Obeying the rules is a significant part of growing up and being a man. Obeying the rules is also a significant part of having a successful racing career.
You just can't throw a temper tantrum and ignore officiating whether you are right or not.
I think NASCAR stands out above all other professional sports because they hold their drivers to higher expectations than the NFL, NBA, etc. If NASCAR had not suspended Robby, what message does that send to the kids (and a lot of adults) who idealize these drivers???
NASCAR made the wrong call for scoring Gordon in 13th place, but NASCAR made the right call to suspend him for disregarding the rules of the sport.
DT
August 7, 2007 | Permalink
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Comments
Very well said.
Posted by: M. B. Voelker | Aug 7, 2007 1:05:06 PM
DT
I agree with you.All I could say was "Robby,this is a Busch race,and I'm sure your Mom told you 2 wrongs do not make a right".Nascar took this one step farther when they tried to make 3 wrongs make a right.I don't think anything should go from series to series.This was the Busch series.Sit him down there,make him sit out the remainder of the year if they want,but don't sit him out in the cup series.JMO
By the way,I want to say thank you for sharing your time and views with us.I know how hard it must be at times.Thanks!!!!!
Posted by: Short Lady | Aug 7, 2007 1:11:49 PM
Just like Robby Gordon said on Sunday, "two wrongs don't make a right". If the scoring loop said Robby was 2nd at the time of caution that's where he should have restarted. He should not have been punished for being spun out under yellow. Again, I reference that Kevin Harvick spun out Jamie McMurray under caution on the last lap at Talladega and McMurray was allowed to come back through the field and re-gain his 5th place position.
Yes, NASCAR screwed up and made a terrible call. I mentioned this in Kathy's blog and you are mirroring the same idea, even though NASCAR's call was wrong that doesn't give Robby Gordon the right to take matters into his own hands and ignore the call. You can't ignore the black flag, run out the race without serving the penalty, and expect to get rewarded for it in a post-race protest.
NASCAR also screwed up by letting that race restart with Robby Gordon in the imporoper position in line. He robbed Marcos Ambrose and Andy Pilgrim of a chance to win the race and he should have never been in a position to do so. They should have waved off the restart and waited for Robby to fall back in line before they waved the green.
NASCAR and Robby Gordon were both in the wrong, but two wrongs certainly don't make a right.
Posted by: stricklinfan82 | Aug 7, 2007 1:19:43 PM
Stricklinfan82-
I'm going to have to "stay on the fence" with your comment about NASCAR shouldn't have even restarted the race with Robby up front.
You are right they shouldn't have restarted the race until everyone was in the correct order.
BUT, a lot of drivers contending for the win didn't have enough fuel to just ride in circles while NASCAR tried to talk some sense into Gordon.
Those guys didn't deserve to be punished for Robby's antics.
AND, it sure did make for a much more exciting finish watching Gordon crash Ambrose, act like he was leading the race and try to top Harvick with his victory burnout.
DT
Posted by: DT | Aug 7, 2007 1:36:42 PM
Time for an independent firm to officiate the races. Nascar has to much baggage. They got mad a Robby because he protests. Maybe they should just get out of the loop and put some credibility in their product.
Posted by: Lou | Aug 7, 2007 1:47:40 PM
DT, not sure why they couldn't keep circling the track, they burn less fuel then they do racing. If Robby doesn't either get off the track or go to the position that he was told to go to. End the race under caution and let the other drivers who wanted to race for a win and the fans who wanted to see a exciting finish beat the s%&t out of his lame aZZ.
Posted by: jeff | Aug 7, 2007 2:13:40 PM
Robby was never going to win this one, DT. Nobody wins but NASCAR in a dispute. Robby admitted he was wrong for failing to comply with the black flag but he took a stand on a blown call. He took his lumps and will probably take a few more but he didn't compromise his own integrity.
Based on some of the unscientific polls on the subject that I've seen on the 'net a majority of voting fans understand exactly what happened on Saturday. It was not NASCAR's finest hour either.
Posted by: Barb g | Aug 7, 2007 2:20:51 PM
I think it would've been more fun watching Marcos and Robby wrestling each other for the win but that's just my opinion.
Posted by: Barb g | Aug 7, 2007 2:22:15 PM
Barb g_
"Integrity"??? Seriously??? Now, seriously. Where is the integrity here?
The only true integrity in this whole situation is NASCAR's suspension of Gordon for blatantly ignoring a directive by the officials...
Integrity would be Gordon restarting in 13th place, winning the race with 4 laps to go (or whatever it was) and then standing in victory lane and saying,...
"Hey NASCAR screwed me and my team on that caution deal, but we took the higher road and instead of me loosing my tempor and doing something stupid to hurt my team and sponsors, I sucked it up and kicked everyone's ass anyway! I'd like to thank all the guys back in the shop for their hard work everyday and every night and I want everyone to know that I'm going to sit down with NASCAR and work with them to come up with a better system for scoring drivers so that our fans can enjoy a fair and exciting race EVERY week"
That's integrity!
DT
Posted by: DT | Aug 7, 2007 2:35:10 PM
From what I understand, at the time of the yellow Ambrose was in the lead, the TV showed Robby pass him for the lead but I believe the yellow was already out before that, I might be wrong. Nascar should've put him in 2nd and been done with it. I personally thing Robby punted Marcus outta frustration which was chickenshit, should've raced him clean, especially after he was TOLD what was up. It is what it is. Shannon Spake is HOT!
Posted by: Spike | Aug 7, 2007 2:39:58 PM
Spike-
Yeah, it's hard to tell from the angle of that TV shot who was leading. I think it could go either way, although, from my Lazy Boy, it really looked like Gordon had him.
Either way, the boy shouldn't have had to start in 13th, because the field should have been frozen before the spin.
DT
Posted by: DT | Aug 7, 2007 2:46:02 PM
NASCAR got the call wrong. Robby should have restarted 2nd. That said they made their decision and said that Robby had to restart 13th. Why they allowed the race to restart with Robby in second is beyond me. Everyone knew that he was going to spin Ambrose out. So that wasn't just on Robby, that's on NASCAR as well. I think France Helton, Pemberton and company should have fined themselves for that as well as Robby. Red flag the race if there is that much concern over fuel but don't restart a race with someone in the wrong position especially when everyone knows that he's going to take out the guy in front of him who just happens to be the leader. I know that NASCAR can't get it right every time but this was one of those times where they could have and didn't. Shame on Robby for spinning Ambrose out but shame on NASCAR as well for letting it happen.
Posted by: Ken | Aug 7, 2007 3:36:03 PM
The genesis of this whole controversy is the rule banning racing to the yellow; we wouldn't have this controversy to the same extent if they raced back to the stripe; then the leader would clearly be known. NASCAR has backed itself into a corner because they can't defend this rule yet they keep it because they were spooked by what happened at New Hampshire in 2003 - it obviously never occurs to them that the rule was never the problem, it was specific drivers.
This is the umpteenth time (I've lost track of the specific number of times) the wrong winner came about because of not racing to the yellow - it's happened at least three times at Talladega (2004, 2005, 2006, even 2003 if you count that there was a yellow with seven to go and Ward Burton led at the stripe), it happened at Michigan at least once (2004), and it's happened at some other places.
Rip Robby Gordon for what he did, but rip NASCAR even more, because they are in the wrong by not racing to the caution. Go back to racing to the yellow, guys, don't give me this safety overkill BS justifying it.
Posted by: Mike Daly | Aug 7, 2007 3:42:43 PM
Hey DT,
Sometimes I don't mind being wrong. This is one of those times.
Robby stuck up for himself. Something no one has the "stuff" to do. How wonderful for Nascar if Ambrose won that race. Well, Robby did not get what he wanted but neither did Nascar.
Nascar still wins cause they still get the press and a chance to spank Robby.
Posted by: Larry | Aug 7, 2007 3:44:32 PM
I disagree with you Mike. Saftey needs to be the first priority in racing. That's why the rule is there. You can't have drivers racing back to the caution for saftey reasons. If you want them to run full speed with a car spun out in the middle of the track then why even throw a caution flag?
Just because someone may be ahead of the wreck doesn't mean that he should be running at full speed and trying to make a pass. That would be an unfair advantage to the drivers ahead of the wreck and a disadvantage to those that have to slow down to avoid the wreck. Some guys get to race for position because they're ahead of the wreck but others can't because they have to slow down to avoid it? That's just unfair if you ask me.
Posted by: Ken | Aug 7, 2007 3:59:01 PM
Larry-
I'm with you, I don't mind being wrong either, but sticking up for yourself and disrespecting the rules of the game are two different scenarios.
Robby and the whole world knew that when NASCAR directed him to 13th place that was their final decision. They argued their point to NASCAR several times and several times NASCAR said, "13th".
Arguing the point was sticking up for yourself. Defying the rules of the game, no matter how fair or, in this case correct they are isn't sticking up for yourself, because in the end, you get suspended, fined, embarrassed, and cost your team money in their pockets.
There is a point where common sense and being smart enough to "see the big" picture over rides temper tantrums and defiance in the face of authority.
Absolutely!... you should always stick up for yourself, but you should never do it in a manner that adversely affects your team and ultimately your own success.
Just my two cents worth (well, maybe that was three or four cents worth there).
Keep read'n bud!
DT
Posted by: DT | Aug 7, 2007 4:02:18 PM
It's obvious that Nascar can't figure out how to enforce their own rules. If they couldn't come up with a better solution than restarting the race with Robby in second (such as red flagging it until they got Robby out of 2nd or out of the race), they deserved exactly the confusion that happened. I'm not saying that what Robby did was right, but it seems the larger share of embarrassment should be at brian France's feet.
Posted by: SallyB | Aug 7, 2007 4:54:45 PM
Ken, you're not making any sense. The rule is not there for safety because there wasn't a safety issue that could not be addressed in another way. It is there to justify more power to the control booth. Unfair? That's a ridiculous argument.
Your argument is like Gordon and Biffle's ridiculous whine after the Daytona 500 wreck - they said they were waiting for the yellow to fly to slow down, as though they were forced to stay on the gas and plow into a wreck they see directly ahead of them. They're so idiotic they need NASCAR to tell them to slow down?
The reality is this - racing to the caution was not the danger zone it is portrayed as because of this rule. The New Hampshire incident in 2003 was not the fault of the rules, it was the fault of Michael Waltrip.
Go back to racing to the yellow.
Posted by: Mike Daly | Aug 7, 2007 5:07:43 PM
Remember, two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do.....go fast, turn left, repeat!!! While Robby is not the most popular driver, sit him out of the Busch Series for what he did during a Busch race.
Posted by: Chip | Aug 7, 2007 5:42:28 PM
Dennis,
I'm going to have to disagree with you on the issue of extending that last yellow flag to put Robby Gordon in the correct position. NASCAR should not make decisions like that based on how it might inconvenience the few cars that were running low on fuel. If NASCAR's reasoning for not extending that yellow flag was to save the 59, 88, and 21 cars that were low on fuel that would be totally unfair to the rest of the field. Every crew on pit road knows there's a possibility of a green-white-checkered finish, so if the race ran a few laps longer than its scheduled distance, "that's racing". Those guys understood the gamble they were taking.
All NASCAR calls should be done unbiasedly. Every call on whether or not to throw a yellow flag or how many laps a caution period should last is going to help some drivers in the field and hurt others. If NASCAR made those decisions based on how many drivers those decisions would adversly effect, that would be totally unfair.
I'm not saying NASCAR hasn't done that in the past though. NASCAR screwed Dale Jarrett out of the Brickyard 400 in 1998 when they were afraid to throw a caution for a stalled car on the track because DJ had a lap on the field because he was the only driver that hadn't pitted under green yet during that pit cycle. Jarrett waited 3 or 4 laps for the yellow and then ran out of gas because of it. After he had finally coasted to pit road and the cycle of stops was complete, the yellow finally came out for that same stalled car and Jarrett was left 4 laps down. He did make all of the laps up (with no lucky dog) but simply ran out of time to win the race.
What they did to Jarrett in '98 was unfair, and if fuel mileage concern was the reasoning for not waving off that final restart that was unfair too. NASCAR should call the race fairly, and not worry about how those decisions will help some drivers and hurt others.
Posted by: stricklinfan82 | Aug 7, 2007 5:51:10 PM
Strickland82-
Good point. That's probably a pretty fair way to look at it.
Just bare in mind that was MY speculation and input. I don't know for a fact that NASCAR actually considered that while making their decision.
DT
Posted by: DT | Aug 7, 2007 6:09:44 PM
But "ain't" it cool that Marcos is going to be driving Robby Gordans car at the Glenn! Robby stepped it up there!
Posted by: darlene | Aug 7, 2007 6:24:03 PM
Dennis,
I understand that was merely your speculation, none of us never know the REAL reason NASCAR does anything, LOL.
The only other possible justification for not waving off the restart might be their precedence with "three-wide restarts". Sometimes the lapped cars get three wide fighting for positioning right before a restart because they think a car that is many laps down should be behind a car that is only one lap down. NASCAR doesn't wave off restarts in those cases, they just let the race restart and black flag the cars that were lined up 3-wide.
Although the circumstances are quite different, they might have just applied that same logic in the Robby Gordon incident. I can only remember one other incident in the past where a driver ignored NASCAR's orders and lined up in a position they weren't supposed to. In the fall of 1990 at Richmond, Harry Gant (driving in relief of Hut Stricklin) was a lap down going into the final restart on lap 400 (a green and white flag together restart). NASCAR ordered him to restart on the inside lane (back then there was no single-file restart rule in the last 10 laps of a race), but Gant ignored NASCAR's orders and restarted on the outside lane between race leaders Dale Earnhardt and Mark Martin because he thought he was on the lap (and claimed that he had radio problems and couldn't hear NASCAR's orders). In that instance NASCAR also let the race restart anyway (of course back then there was no green-white-checkered rule, the race would have ended under yellow if they waved off that restart) and Hut Stricklin was given a one-lap penalty for his relief driver ignoring NASCAR's orders about where to restart.
Posted by: stricklinfan82 | Aug 7, 2007 6:37:13 PM
Correction, I meant to say Harry Gant thought he was on the LEAD LAP, so that's why he restarted on the outside line in that 1990 race at Richmond. Oops, LOL.
Posted by: stricklinfan82 | Aug 7, 2007 6:39:48 PM
Mike you're just wrong on this. There's no reason for them to race back to the caution. Period. What good does it do any ways if it's not the last lap? If the second place guy is faster than the leader then let him make the pass on the restart.
The drivers like the rule because it allows the saftey crew to get to the accident faster so I don't see why you have a problem with it.
Posted by: Ken | Aug 7, 2007 8:08:46 PM
That is cool, Darlene. Very classy move by Robby. Camping World and Kingsford charcoal is a great match too. I hope Marcos can put the #77 in the show and I'll be cheering for him.
Posted by: Barb g | Aug 7, 2007 8:33:43 PM
What really irks me about this whole deal is that NASCRAP won't own up to the fact that they botched the call. We all know why they won't. Someone obviously stepped in and said for him to go back to 13th. They saw an opportunity for several first time winners and the ever so typical "lets screw Robby" moment.
Further penalizing him 35k and such a harsh probation is just over the freekin top. Knowing them, they will consider arguing with them an embarassment. They embarassed themselves with their own bad behavior.
I am not sure that I will bother watching this sport anymore. That is something I never thought I'd be saying. NASCAR has turned into a predictable WWE soap opera and not worth watching or wasting my money on.
I do applaud the way Robby is making it up to Marcos. How cool and classy! And a nice way to put it in Nascar's face again. He has shown more class than nascrap will ever muster.
Ok, nuff said
Posted by: 8BudGirl | Aug 7, 2007 9:33:11 PM
Hey DT, do you think its time for NASCAR to step up (as does the NFL,MLB Ever happen?
Posted by: clay | Aug 8, 2007 5:22:15 AM
Stricklinfan82 -- I found your posts here really helpful. Seems to me, NASCAR is never wrong.
Posted by: Doris | Aug 8, 2007 5:24:33 AM
it seems to me that Robby Gordon would have had a LOT more success as a Cup driver if he weren't such a hot-headed idiot.
There are plenty of other hot-headed drivers on the Cup circuit, but they listen and do what they are told. Tony Stewart comes to mind here. He's been successful because he at least listens.
Everyone knew that Robby was going to spin Marcos. This is really the only reason Robby stayed in second instead of moving to first or thirteenth. NASCAR should have thrown the red flag and, if Robby refused to park, physically disable his car if that's what it took. I've seen Robby Gordon do some pretty dumb things in the past but this one, by far, tops them all.
Still, it was pretty cool to see three cars doing burnouts and donuts.
As for using television replays to determine the lineup, I have no issue with this when the caution flies on the last lap. However, in the middle of a race (even close to the end like we had Saturday), the scoring loop is a good compromise between fairness and expedience. As a fan I wouldn't be happy if I had to wait around for 45 minutes waiting for NASCAR to figure out who was in 37th place (or even first place for that matter). Let's get back to racing already!
Posted by: Matt Durell | Aug 8, 2007 6:25:27 AM
naskar..controversy or soap opera?
a new show hosted by Axel Bearing !
stay tuned to this weeks show:
Naskar loves Gobby Rorden..just ask him !
ALSO THIS WEEK.....
its old....
where'd my mony go Gobby Rordon interviewing naskar to see if he can get a refund !
Naskar makes announcement...they no longer will use postioning sensors and from now on they'll just guess at it !
[ or ask Gobby Rorden]
Fresh into the newsroom:
naskar this week at gatkins wlen:
Naskar denies Gobby Rordan refund and fines him another 25,000.00 just for asking, we interviewed naskar on this topic and they responded with this statement:
Gobby Rordon was not in position for a refund,so we fined him..its right here in the naskar rule book 691 part 4 article 27 rule 15 paragragh 6 line 27 of the new amendment 12 of 915... book 2 page 19 paragraph 3 line 10 ...it says
no refunds !
this is a Axel Bearing Production.
Posted by: RR | Aug 8, 2007 7:01:05 AM
Matt, TV replays to determine the running order do not work - the only way to determine the running order is at the one area of the track where it is supposed to be determined - the start-finish line. Race to the stripe.
Ken, the rule hasn't sped up the safety crews at all. You are the one who is wrong on this. The rule is there because NASCAR wanted more control of the racing and they got spooked because of Michael Waltrip at New Hampshire in 2003. There is every reason to race back to the yellow - it is the ONLY credible way to sort out the running order. PERIOD. Don't defend freezing the field because there is no defense of it. "If the second place guy is faster..." then let him pass coming back to the yellow.
Posted by: Mike Daly | Aug 8, 2007 8:38:05 AM
Why was it hard to tell who was leading the race in Montreal when the yellow came out? Because ESPN's racing coverage is horrible! Stay with the leaders then go back and show the crashes later.
Mike Daly, "Umpteenth time"? A perfect example of an accurate and precise Mike Daly stat. More evidence of your lack of any credibility whatsoever Mike. Is that more than a "few" or is it more than "some"? Maybe it's a "lot"? Is umpteenth more than eleven but less that twenty? No wonder you can never be taken seriously in any legitimate debate.
Posted by: ron | Aug 8, 2007 9:58:26 AM
"Obeying the rules is a significant part of growing up and being a man." And so is admitting when you are wrong. I don't know Mike Helton or any of the other NASCAR brass, but they always come across as arrogant know-it-alls. I can't imagine them humbling themselves to confess that they screwed up on this one. It seems to me that all of the power has gone to their heads. We'll see how they sound as their ratings continue to slip and they head the way of the XFL.
Posted by: Parson | Aug 8, 2007 10:02:58 AM
Mike Daly,
1.) The safety crews do get to the wrecked cars much more quickly now that there is no racing back to the yellow flag. The safety trucks start rolling immediately when the yellow is displayed now. Put in a tape of a race from pre-2003 and watch how long it took the safety trucks to get to a car wrecked up against the wall. Back then they had to wait for the whole field racing at speed to pass by before they could start rolling. Now they are there right away. Your statement that eliminating racing back to the yellow has done nothing for safety is a complete joke, what are you watching exactly?
2.) Scoring loops serve the same purpose as the start/finish line does - using an electronic marker to determine running position at the time of a yellow flag. It's not perfect because there isn't a scoring loop on every square inch of every track, but tell me, what's the difference between cars racing to a scoring loop in the middle of the backstretch and racing to the start/finish line? The fact that you can see a painted line on TV? There's no point in forcing the cars to race an extra 3/4 of a lap to get back to the start/finish line when there is a car on fire somewhere on the track. Using the scoring from a loop on the racetrack is much better idea because it allows the cars to slow immediately.
3.) Where do your stats that the wrong car has won several races because of not racing back to the yellow flag come from? The only time this could apply is when a caution flag ends the race and there might be a debate as to who would have won the race back to the stripe (Earnhardt Jr. vs. Gordon at Talladega in '04, Jarrett vs. Stewart at Talladega in '05 for example). In any of those cases you can "guess" who would have won the race back to the line but you can't say for sure the wrong car won the race because you have no idea who WOULD HAVE won a battle to the line. When a caution flag ends the race NASCAR does use video to determine the winner, so the "wrong" car has never won a race. Gordon and Jarrett were leading at the time of yellow in those examples, so they didn't rob anybody of a win. Same with Ryan Newman at Michigan in 2004, Jimmie Johnson in the 2006 Daytona 500, and every other race that has ended under caution in the "freezing the field" era. And by the way, Ward Burton was the first car to pass the finish line to take the caution in your 2003 Talladega example, but that's only because he passed Michael Waltrip and Dale Earnhardt Jr. after they rightfully slowed for the caution flag, so the DESERVING car did not get robbed in that instance either.
4.) Michael Waltrip wasn't the cause of the mess at Loudon in 2003, lapped cars racing past Waltrip and the other race leaders coming to a caution flag and nearly hitting Dale Jarrett's wrecked car was what opened NASCAR's eyes.
The bottom line is that your stats and recollection of history are flawed, and there is no difference between racing to an "invisible" line (scoring loop) in the middle of the backstretch and the painted line at the start/finish line besides the fact that you can't see the line on TV. The safety of the drivers is more important than you being able to see cars race to a painted line instead of to a scoring loop. Period.
Posted by: stricklinfan82 | Aug 8, 2007 10:53:38 AM
Mike you're wrong. I'll say it again. The drivers wanted this rule. Jeff Gordon, Jeff Burton and others advocated for this rule and NASCAR agreed that it was time for the rule. Not to mention that after the rule was put in place, Gordon and others praised the saftey crews for how fast they were able
get to accidents. You have your own opinion of this but the drivers disagree with you and theirs are the only opinions that NASCAR should take into consideration.
And let's remember one thing. Even before this rule was put in place, lead lap cars never raced back to the caution any ways. Driver ettiquette was to slow down and let lapped cars get their laps back. The problem was that too many guys were comming from too far back to get their laps back that it created a problem. If I remember correctly, it was Dale Jarrett, not Michael Waltrip(unless I'm thinking of a different incident) that was spun out in the middle of the track and lapped cars were zooming by at full speed trying to get their laps back. Jarrett's car was sideways with the driver's side facing the oncomming traffic. Imagine what would have happened if someone had run into the driver's side door head on at full speed. Jarrett got lucky and NASCAR wanted to make sure that no driver was ever put in that position again.
Any ways, your point is moot because like I said. The leaders never raced back to the caution even before this rule was put in place, the exception being the last lap.
Posted by: Ken | Aug 8, 2007 11:40:34 AM
8Budgirl,
I agree with you 100%.
Posted by: Race Fan | Aug 8, 2007 2:18:05 PM
I agree with Robby standing up for himself period against NASCAR.
Dt, (not a shot, but you were in the same garage) and half the drivers came by to agree with his stance and show support.
Someone stated on another blog and here "use the media", that doesnt work period, he still would have gotten fined and probation. You can win with Brian, Mike and Darby.
It appears they want robots these days.Well at least when the cameras and reporters are around, after they leave they get to be normal.
Posted by: Kurt2 | Aug 8, 2007 2:57:11 PM
Ken, you are the one who is wrong. "The drivers wanted this rule." Why was NASCAR supposed to listen to them when common sense defied their logic? Jeffs Gordon and Burton do not know what they are talking about here because racing back to the caution was never unsafe, they know that already. It's wussification by them, not a legitimate safety argument. The safety crews were getting to accidents all the same before they started freezing the field, not once were they ever held up by racing to the yellow.
To make sure we're discussing the right incident - at NHIS in 2003 Dale Jarrett crashed off Four and was stopped. The leaders heard their spotters tell them of the wreck and slowed down - except Michael Waltrip; he bulled forward to put someone a lap down even though he'd been told by his spotter that Jarrett was stopped off Four. It was Michael Waltrip at fault, NOT THE RULE.
"The leaders never raced back to the yellow except on the last lap." This isn't entirely true, and it misses the point in any event, which is that by racing to the yellow EVERYONE clearly understood who was running where. By freezing the field, NASCAR has made it impossible to know who's running where because they're arbitrarily and artificially determining running order AWAY FROM THE START-FINISH LINE. You cannot defend this rule no matter how much hot air you spew, and NASCAR cannot defend it either, so do the right thing (you and NASCAR) and admit to being wrong.
RACE BACK TO THE CAUTION, PERIOD, NO MORE DEBATE.
Posted by: Mike Daly | Aug 8, 2007 3:29:03 PM
Hey ron, it's a case of someone like yourself having no credible counter to an argument yet refusing to listen to the truth. And for the umpteenth time that's been the case.
Posted by: Mike Daly | Aug 8, 2007 3:30:22 PM
stricklanfan82, wrong wrong wrong and wrong.
1 - The timing of safety crews getting to wreck scenes HAS NOT CHANGED ONE IOTA. I've been watching these races for over two decades and I've seen the safety crews; this rule has changed nothing as far as safety crews getting to wreck scenes.
2 - Scoring loops are artificial emplacements; they are not the start-finish line. The S/F line is the only legitimate area to determine the running order. "What's the difference between cars racing to a scoring loop and racing to the stripe?" The stripe is the official, legitimate area determining the running order; scoring loops are artificial emplacements. They are illegitimate determinants of the running order.
3 - The stats I cited come from the races themselves - Earnhardt Jr. had the line to beat Gordon back to the stripe but was stopped because of freezing the field; Stewart was repassing Jarrett when the field froze in 2005; Kahne passed Vickers but NASCAR ruled he hadn't because of freezing the field; Kahne had the run to pass Newman at Michigan in 2004 but was stopped by freezing the field. The wrong car won those races because they were jobbed out by the rule freezing the field. As for Ward Burton in 2003, he was in the process of passing them all just as the wreck started - he got jobbed out of the lead.
4 - Waltrip was not the leader in that New Hampshire race; he charged forward to put a car or two a lap down, ignoring that his spotter had told him of Jarrett's wreck. NASCAR got spooked and refused to blame the actual guilty party - the driver. They had no business changing that rule; the only proper response was parking Waltrip for several laps.
The bottom line is I am the one with the facts straight, not you or NASCAR. A scoring loop is not the start-finish line, it is an artificial creation, and the safety of the drivers isn't affected at all - using this rule for safety is just another case of safety overkill.
RACE BACK TO THE YELLOW. PERIOD.
Posted by: Mike Daly | Aug 8, 2007 3:39:44 PM
why hasent anyone after AMBROSE he spun out gordon plain as day so how could he keep pace as nascar said he should have been sent to back of feild. it was like harvick spin out 22 i think nothing done. also wrong car manfg (FORD) out front nascar didnt wont them to win, they could brought cars down pit road stopped them sent wrecker to gordon car removed it. they did what they wonted. also i am not a gordon or ford or chevy fan all dodge & toyota fan chevy is in france pocket full of money so they help anyway they can to win races
Posted by: joe | Aug 8, 2007 4:17:37 PM
Alright Mike Daly, you win with your fantastic arguments:
- Mike Daly is more of an expert on driver safety than Jeff Gordon and Jeff Burton. Jeff Gordon and Jeff Burton were just being "wusses" when speaking out against racing to the caution flag. They weren't concerned about safety, they were scared of ...... well, I guess you never exactly explained what they were really afraid of. I guess you think they were either afraid of losing positions on their way to take the yellow flag at the finish line?
- You insist that safety trucks used to run across the race track immediately after wrecks in pre-2003 with no regard for cars behind them that were still racing at 200 mph trying to get to the finish line.
- Your version of common sense says there was no danger of forcing cars to race at 200 mph past a wrecked car.
- NASCAR just "arbitrarily" guesses running positions when they freeze the field. The electronic scoring loop at the start/finish line is the only one of the scoring loops on a racetrack that gives actual running position data, so it should be the only scoring loop that matters.
Great arguments Mr. Daly, everyone else is wrong and you are right, congratulations. I don't know if you're actually serious with your arguments or if you're just trying to get attention by making ridiculous statements.
I respect your right to have your own opinion, but how about including some factual evidence and logic to your arguments? "Jeff Gordon is a wuss", "Jeff Burton and Jeff Gordon don't know that they're talking about" and "scoring loops are artificial" aren't legitimate arguments I'm sorry. Through all of your mess you almost made one decent point, that it was disappointing to see all those races end under yellow because the outcome COULD HAVE been different if they raced back to the line, but when you phrase it like "Earnhardt had the line on Gordon so he would have passed Gordon and won the race back to the line half a lap later at Talladega", that's another example of not giving a logical argument. I'm sure Kyle Busch knew he had the Pepsi 400 won a half lap from the finish line as well. I'm sorry man. I admire your passion for the sport but your opinions might be a little more respected by everyone else if you made some sensible and factually correct statements that once in a while.
Posted by: stricklinfan82 | Aug 8, 2007 4:23:13 PM
stricklanfan82, try making sense. Gordon is the same driver who said after the Daytona 500 that he was waiting for the yellow to fly on the final lap before slowing down, even with a wreck ahead of him. To take him or other drivers seriously about racing to the yellow is the height of absurdity.
Safety trucks were never impeded from getting to a wreck site by cars racing to the yellow - I've watched this sport for over two decades and it never happened. And "forcing" cars to race past a wrecked car? That argument is of the same foolish plane as Gordon waiting for the yellow before slowing down for a wreck he's about to hit. These drivers have never been "forced" to race past a wrecked car.
And BTW, remember "always aim for the wreck because it will be gone by the time you get there"?
The start-finish line is the only area of the racetrack that determines the running order, period. Scoring loops are an artificial creation.
I don't seek attention, and I don't make statements to do so; I state what is the truth, and your arguments are so ridiculous as to be the work of a complete idiot, stricklanfan. You're supposed to be smarter than that.
The factual evidence is right there in front of you, stricklanfan, if you'd have actually watched those races you'd have seen it. Don't lecture me about factual arguments, Dakota/stricklanfan82, because you've brought nothing but fiction to the discussion. You cannot defend this rule, so I suggest you stop trying. Race to the yellow, period.
Posted by: Mike Daly | Aug 8, 2007 5:14:55 PM
Stricklanfan82, click my name on this post to see where Gordon said he needed NASCAR to wave the yellow for him to slow down for a wreck right in front of him.
Posted by: Mike Daly | Aug 8, 2007 5:17:19 PM
LMAO. Mike you just showed you are not qualified to post about this. You're telling everyone that the guys that actually race these cars and are in these situations week in and week out don't know what they're talking about. That's one of the most idiotic statements that I've ever heard.
Then you contradict yourself by saying that it's Waltrip's fault that he was running that fast and yet still want them to race back to the caution. I can't take anything you say seriously any more.
Finally, the fact that the leaders didn't race back to the caution even before this rule was put into place should be the entire point. What it means is that this rule has changed nothing when it comes to what the leaders do when the yellow comes out. They slow down like they've always done.
"The bottom line is I am the one with the facts straight, not you or NASCAR." No the bottom line is that when it comes to saftey it should be about what the drivers want, not what Mike Daly wants. The drivers say that the saftey crews get to the wrecks faster with this rule. Are you calling them liars?
I have to agree with Stricklinfan. Mike's living in fantasy land.
Posted by: Ken | Aug 8, 2007 5:22:41 PM
Mike Daly,
A lot of people seem to think I do a pretty decent job of giving opinions with some logical reasoning behind them. I'm sorry that you don't consider my statements as factually accurate as your defenses like "Jeff Gordon is a wuss", "you're supposed to be smarter than that", and "wrong wrong wrong wrong".
I've forgotten more about NASCAR than a lot of people know, but then again you're probably more qualified to talk about my own NASCAR knowledge than I am right? And my name is stricklinfan82. You know, like the former Cup driver Hut Stricklin. Being a 20+ year fan of the sport you'd think you could at least get my name right once.
I'm done arguing with you on this subject, I can't compete with "Jeff Gordon is a wuss". What's next?, "Your favorite Cup driver never won a race.. so.. that means you're wrong and your opinion is stupid!"
Posted by: stricklinfan82 | Aug 8, 2007 6:04:21 PM
Hey DT,
Nascar only fining Robby 35,000 more, is as close to admitting they screwed up as we'll get! lol
Posted by: Larry | Aug 8, 2007 6:55:38 PM
Ken, you can damned well take me seriously because your "contradiction" is nothing of the kind. Waltrip heard his spotter tell him of Jarrett's wreck and, being Michael Waltrip, bullied through to put some cars a lap down. That is a driver not using his head; that is not a fault of the rule and never was. You can't take yourself seriously because you're the one who isn't qualified to comment here because your "contradiction" is nothing of the kind.
"The leaders didn't race back to the caution even before this rule..." I just got through pointing out earlier that they knew where the running order was determined; they used their heads because there was a clear line determining the running order. "They slow down like they've always done." You're making my point, Ken.
The bottom line is the safety crews are not getting to wreck scenes faster now than they did before - we've all seen that. The safety argument is a sham. "Are you calling the drivers liars?" I'm calling them wrong, period.
The other bottom line was shown for all to see by NASCAR letting them race to the line at Daytona in July 2004 (the BGN race) and the 500 this past February. NASCAR by its own actions demonstrated it knows the rule freezing the field is a sham.
Posted by: Mike Daly | Aug 8, 2007 7:04:01 PM
stricklanfan82, nowhere in this discussion have you given any credible argument. That you support freezing the field when NASCAR itself knows its a sham - shown by letting the leaders race to the stripe at Daytona twice this decade in circumstances identical to the three Talladega races and the Michigan race cited earlier - indicates that your understanding of the sport is deficient, so I guess I could say I understand the sport better than you do - I know you cannot name one wreck that happened because of racing to the yellow.
Freezing the field has corrupted the integrity of the competition. Race to the yellow; don't give an argument for freezing the field, stricklan/Dakota, because the rationale for this rule is a lie.
Posted by: Mike Daly | Aug 8, 2007 7:08:31 PM
- Ernie Irvan running into a stopped Greg Sacks and consequently taking out Jeff Gordon at Texas in 1997 racing Terry Labonte to the line to get his lap back
- Darrell Waltrip wrecking in the 1983 Daytona 500 trying to get a lap back from race leader Dick Brooks racing to the yellow
- Brett Bodine crashing after racing Rusty Wallace back to the yellow to get a lap back in 1993.
There's 3 examples off the top of my head in about 5 seconds time. I'm sure if I put a couple minutes of thought into it I could come up with dozens more examples but I think I've proven my point. You can have all the cute comebacks you want but don't question my knowledge of the sport sir.
Posted by: stricklinfan82 | Aug 8, 2007 7:29:15 PM
Before you nitpick, the Brett Bodine - Rusty Wallace incident was in the 1993 spring race at Bristol, accidentally left that part out. Off the top of my head I remember Brett Bodine started 2nd that day, led the first few laps, then lost a lap in the pits, lost another lap after wrecking while racing back to the yellow, later got caught in a crash with his brother Geoff and Ted Musgrave, but still finished in the top 10 (I believe 8th or 9th). That's all in my head, you're not gonna find an website detailing Brett Bodine's trials and tribulations that day at Bristol that could have helped me fake that knowledge. Feel smart now questioning my NASCAR knowledge Mr. Daly?
Posted by: stricklinfan82 | Aug 8, 2007 7:36:08 PM
dont piss down my back and tell me it is raining.nascar and you are wrong and you and nascar are a lie.why dont you all take jr and jimmie, and tony and jeff and stick them up your a22.you write what nascar tells you to write so you can get in the pitts, and suck up to the GM boys
Posted by: larry | Aug 8, 2007 7:46:55 PM
I am not a Robby Gordon fan, but I am a believer in fair play. This is not the first time that NASCAR officials have either not brought out the yellow flag in a timely manner or not honored their own rule of freezing the field at the time the flag is displayed. Are the drivers without rights..sort of slaves to the whims of NASCAR? None of this would have happened if NASCAR officials had done their job properly. It almost seems as though they taunt drivers, especially those with short tempers, until they snap so that they can then make a big spash about using their power to punish the wrongdoer. I believe in respecting rules and respecting those that rule, but the rules and rulers must be worthy of respect. What was Robby to do?? Meekly accept NASCAR's omnipotence and be called spineless or stand up for his rights and be called belligerent? I'm sure no one believes that NASCAR would have examined their own actions and reversed themselves if Robby had meekly accepted NASCAR's edict. If we had not stood up for our rights we would still be beholden to the Crown of England. I have not yet heard NASCAR say it made a mistake....ever.
Posted by: Johanna Martin | Aug 8, 2007 7:54:04 PM
Johanna,
I agree that NASCAR needs to work on consistency with yellow flags and freezing the field. We've seen a lot of races where they've throw a yellow on the final lap (2005 truck race at Daytona, 2005 fall Talladega, 2006 Daytona 500 and Pepsi 400) but also several races where they let the cars finish under green despite a last lap crash (2004 fall Talladega, 2007 Daytona 500). They also contradicted themselves with the Robby Gordon placement on the final restart. Jamie McMurray got to re-gain his 5th place finish at Talladega this year after Kevin Harvick spun him out under yellow and he got passed by the whole field before he got his car refired. The same thing happened to Robby in Montreal but they told him to restart 13th, which was where he was in line after refiring, and that was just wrong.
NASCAR is not going to dare admit their mistake because the second they did Robby Gordon would appeal the race and the stock car racing commission would probably have to give Robby the win because NASCAR would have admitted they made the mistake that kept Robby from being scored as the race winner.
Posted by: stricklinfan82 | Aug 8, 2007 8:11:30 PM
Mike, you need help seriously. First of all the Daytona 500 was the last lap which is why they raced back to start finish line. I've already said that the last lap is the exception to the rule. Second of all you're out of your mind if you're going to say that the drivers are wrong about this. Who are you to say that drivers should be more concerned about racing back to the yellow than they should be about saftey? You've never been a racer before therefore you've never been in that situation therefore you aren't qualified to determine what's right and what's wrong. All you are is a disgruntled fan because your driver got screwed one too many times because of this. Tough luck. Get over it.
The fact, and it is a fact whether you want to admit it or not unless you happen to have data that no one, not even NASCAR or the drivers have, is that saftey crews do get to the wrecks faster than they did before this rule was put into place. NASCAR says it and more importantly the drivers say it. And if anyone should know it's the drivers. When guys like Gordon and Burton are complaining before this rule was put into place and then praising NASCAR afterwards then it must be an improvement. You may think that they're wrong but that doesn't mean that they are. There's a difference between fact and your opinion. Your opinion may be that nothing has changed but that doesn't make it a fact.
Let me guess. You also think that drivers should be allowed to go as fast as they want down pit road even though someone was killed because of that. Please Mike, get a grip. Saftey is and always should take priority over everything else. The drivers don't have a problem with having to slow down when the yellow comes out and neither should you. If they did have a problem with it then maybe I would understand your point of view. But I've yet to hear a driver say that they slowing down when the caution comes out is the wrong thing to do. Remember, it's their lives on the line, not yours. They should get to make that call not you.
Posted by: Ken | Aug 8, 2007 8:13:16 PM
stricklanfan82 - Ernie Irvan was being Ernie Irvan in that Texas wreck. That was not a rule issue, that was Ernie being Ernie. On Waltrip, Lake Speed chopped off Dick Brooks and Waltrip swerved to avoid Brooks - again, driver fault (Lake Speed), not rule. On Bodine - driver fault, not rule. You're 0-for-3, Dakota. There has never been an example where racing to the yellow caused a wreck; it's 100% driver fault. NASCAR does not need to work to make freezing the field more consistent, because the rule is unworkable - it has to be scrapped. Race to the yellow, determine the running order at the start-finish stripe, no more freezing the field, no more lucky dog, and no more lying to me about freezing the field, Dakota.
Ken, don't lecture me about help. The last lap is not the exception - you race to the yellow, period. Second I just showed you that the drivers cannot be taken seriously here because they don't know what the hell they're talking about - it's not a safety issue and never has been, so don't lecture me about drivers being more concerned with racing to the yellow, espeically when some of them by their own admission practically need NASCAR to give them permission to slow down for a wreck - they're not competent enough to use their heads? Who the hell are you to take these idiots seriously here? I'm more qualified than you are to talk because I'm more knowledgable about the sport's history than you are and know when these drivers cannot be taken seriously.
The fact is the safety crews are not getting to wreck scenes faster now than they did then - watch the races and you'll see it. That Gordon and Burton were whining about it means nothing because there was never a problem before and there isn't a problem that racing to the yellow can possibly cause.
"All you are..." All I am is someone calling it for what it is - the corruption of the integrity of the competition. We've had the wrong winner declared because of frezing the field on several occassions, that is a fact. You're the one still in denial about it, Ken.
Safety is oversold because there wasn't the problem the modern mythology has erected; safety was never compromised because of racing to the yellow - there hasn't been a wreck caused by the rule (what wrecks there have been were caused by idiot drivers) and there has not been one wreck prevented by freezing the field.
Since you want to drag pit speed limits into the conversation - a pit crewman was killed because of the rule closing pit road; there have been numerous pit injuries since then because the core problem - closing pit road - remains in place. That rule needs to be removed and go back to pitting as fast as you can but at no point being allowed to overshoot the pit. There was no particular safety issue in the pits until - and only until - NASCAR started closing pit road in late March 1989.
You're 0-for-the-truth, Ken; you've lost the argument because you don't know what you're talking about. The drivers in fact do have a problem with freezing the field because they're getting jobbed out of their proper position in the serial order by freezing the field; we saw it in grotesque fashion at Montreal. That whole fiasco started because of freezing the field - if NASCAR raced to the yellow the field would have come around safely to the stripe, the leader would clearly be known, Robby Gordon would know where he was, and none of what happened next would have happened. That is the bare-bones bottom line of this particular episode. Freezing the field is the wrong thing to do. Period. Get that fact through your head, Ken.
Posted by: Mike Daly | Aug 8, 2007 9:07:04 PM
BTW stricklanfan - your response to Johanna proves by your own words the unworkability of freezing the field.
Posted by: Mike Daly | Aug 8, 2007 9:08:42 PM
And Ken, "it's their lives on the line" is irrelevent because these drivers do not think in terms of the big picture - that means it is "my" call and not theirs. Their lives were not threatened by racing to the yellow, so don't insult my intelligence, Ken. Race to the yellow.
Posted by: Mike Daly | Aug 8, 2007 9:10:10 PM
LOL. Mike please get some help. You call the drivers idiots. Again, that opinion disqualifies you from being able to post anything logical about this subject.
Like I said. There's a difference between fact and opinion. Your opinion is that there isn't a difference. That doesn't make it a fact. You need to get that through your head. Mike Daly is not king of the world. Just because you believe something to be true doesn't mean that it is. You keep saying it's a fact but where's your proof to back it up? You have no proof. Therefore you can't keep claiming that it's fact. It's nothing more than your opinion. Please learn the meaning of the word fact and the meaning of the word opinion.
As for Montreal. Robby said he was ok with restarting 2nd. Let me repeat that for you Mike. ROBBY WAS OK WITH RESTARTING 2nd. That wasn't his complaint. His complaint was when NASCAR said that he had to restart 13th, something that we all agree with Robby on. He didn't have an issue with not being able to race back to the caution. If NASCAR said that the field was frozen and Robby had to restart 2nd then he was ok with that. So please enough with your misrepresentation of the facts Mike.
Posted by: Ken | Aug 8, 2007 9:36:14 PM
What a bunch of baloney. Why would I want my children to see that if you are wronged that you just take it and don't stand up for your rights. NASCAR made a stupid call and Mike Helton needs to be a man and admit it. He won't so he penalizes anyone who questions his stupidity. To bad he didn't try this trick with the drivers who made NASCAR what it is instead of a carbon copy of IRL follow the leader.
Posted by: Ted | Aug 8, 2007 9:59:30 PM
My point is that none of those 3 wrecks would have happened if the drivers weren't allowed to race back to the caution flag. Ernie Irvan would have slowed down the backstretch and would have never been in a position to hit Greg Sacks running 180 mph on the frontstretch. Lake Speed, Darrell Waltrip, and Dick Brooks would have slowed down in turn 1 and would have never been in a position to wreck at full speed in turn 4 later that lap. Brett Bodine would have slowed in turns 1 and 2 and would have never wrecked racing at full speed coming off turn 4.
I have a straight-forward question for you Mr. Daly:
If the field was frozen back then, how many of those 3 wrecks would have still happened anyway?
a.) ZERO
b.) ONE
c.) TWO
d.) ALL THREE
I'm hoping that your answer is something other than zero, that way we can all finally laugh at you for being completely dillusional and move on with our lives. If anyone else would like to participate and answer this multiple choice question also please feel free to. I'd be curious to see if anyone but Mr. Daly answers anything but zero :)
Posted by: stricklinfan82 | Aug 8, 2007 10:22:59 PM
And one more question Mr. Daly, who is Dakota? If it's some kind of joke I don't understand its meaning, LOL.
Posted by: stricklinfan82 | Aug 8, 2007 10:28:14 PM
Stricklinfan, I've already come to the conclusion that Mike isn't a rational human being. He's made statements like "the drivers are idiots," "the drivers don't know what they're talking about," "it should be up to me(Mike) to decide whether or not the drivers race back to the caution and not the drivers themselves," "saftey is overrated," "there shouldn't be a speed limit on pit road," etc. etc. Does that sound like a rational person to you?
Posted by: Ken | Aug 8, 2007 10:37:38 PM
Ken, you're exactly right. I thought there were 3 of us he was calling out but I upon further review I think he's referring to me by two names - Dakota and stricklanfan82, neither of which are correct actually. It's stricklinfan82 and I am a guy so my name's certainly not Dakota (no offense intended towards any male named Dakota that might be reading this, LOL). Maybe I just don't understand the joke, I dunno. Hopefully he'll explain the Dakota thing in his next rambling.
I'll make you a deal Ken, I'll ignore him from this point forward if you will too. He obviously wants the attention and we're the only two that are giving it to him. If we both stop trying to argue with him maybe he'll just go away :)
Posted by: stricklinfan82 | Aug 8, 2007 10:48:52 PM
Ken, calling the drivers idiots when they themselves have demonstrated such doesn't disqualify anything beyond your ridiculous defenses of them. "There is a difference between fact and opinion." When I post an opinion, I make that clear; when I post a fact, that's clear, too. "Where's your proff to back it up?" In the real world right there in front of you; start seeing the bigger picture.
"Robby Gordon would have been okay restarting second." Again, you ignore the reality that he was NOT second coming back to the stripe; it was NASCAR arbitrarily assigning him to a position based on reading of scoring loops. That was the genesis of that entire fracas; racing to the line would have safely sorted out the field and none of that would have happened. This is what freezing the field has wrought - the corruption of the integrity of the competition. Get reality straight for a change, Ken - don't lecture me about rationality when you have no grasp of it yourself.
stricklan82,
1 - To answer your multiple-choice question - all three. Ernie Irvan was not going to slow down in his wreck; he was One-Eyed Jerk, remember? Lake Speed was not going to race any differently than he did (you ignore that Dick Brooks had slowed down entering Three and was LETTING cars get a lap back). Brett Bodine was not going to race any differently than he did. Nowhere was freezing the field going to prevent anything.
2 - Dakota is the handle of a regular caller to WEEI Radio who spews nonsensical premises on Boston-area sports and is ripped for it thusly. It's an inside joke.
Posted by: Mike Daly | Aug 9, 2007 9:21:03 AM
BTW Ken, you lost the debate on closing pit road, too.
Posted by: Mike Daly | Aug 9, 2007 9:22:29 AM
Mike Daly / Monkeesfan...now I get it! The same all-knowing idiot who's valid points are lost in the sea of arrogant, self-aggrandizing ramblings and insults toward anyone who dares question his "facts"...
Here's an inside joke for you, Mike/Monkee-
You are a blow-hard idiot.
Posted by: DT2 | Aug 10, 2007 6:23:27 AM
You got that right DT2. As usual Daly doesn't answer a direct question but instead falls back on his faulty logic and repititious statements. You bring nothing new to the debate Mike. Just the same old boring stuff, over and over. I have yet to see a post of your's that in any way counters someone else's opinion in a legitimate debate. Repeat, repeat, repeat is not a debating style Mike. It just shows your lack of original thought. I see I have broken you of your little habit of POSTING THE SAME THING YOU SAID BEFORE ONLY LARGER TO BE TAKEN MORE SERIOUSLY though. You're welcome.
Posted by: ron | Aug 15, 2007 5:31:54 PM
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