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what making the competition better
As i was sitting in the lunch room today wondering what to write about a buddy of mine gave me an idea that is worth talking about. Two years ago there were only about 11 or maybe 12 teams that were good enough to get into the chase. The last year there were maybe 13 or 14 teams there were running good enough to make the chase and for some reason or another didn't make it. If you look at the points this year it s very close and there are plenty of teams that are capable of making the chase. When ever you have the 2, 24 ,and 17 out of the chase you know the competition is getting better. I guess my question is what is the cause of the close competition. Is it the pressure on the drivers to compete, is it the chase format, could it be the COT car. Everyone has there own opinion but here is mine. Ever sense the chase format has been instituted the drivers and teams have a lot more at steak. In the old days you had a handful of teams and drivers that just coasted and collected. You cant do that any more. Perfect example is Jeremy Mayfield. Three years ago he was a chase driver, now he cant find a ride. I think the pressure of the chase has helped create a competitive atmosphere on the track. Thats my opinion lets here yours.
April 30, 2008 | Permalink
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Crap! You mean it's not all part of the show???
Good question, and only opinions here too. Honestly I was hoping you could tell me...hahaha.
Technology and the ability to produce data by the ream. I think those that adapted and acquired the resources first, excelled first. Now it appears all are beginning to understand how to use it.
COT - not sure. Is it more stable, broadly speaking? I dunno, perhaps.
Over the wall (you forgot to mention that). I see tremendous efforts here and I really feel the 12 crew was the benchmark. More races than not are won or lost in the pits.
Staffing up behind the scenes. Would you agree that internal staffing is nearing the competition level of a Sunday afternoon? Quality and quantity?
Heaven only knows what Penske will look like with a new power plant. Can't wait.
Next week...tell us the good stuff about the new Dodge engine, ok?
Posted by: Dave in the Bend | Apr 30, 2008 6:47:29 PM
First of all, that Jeremy Mayfield made the playoffs twice only illustrates the fundamental mediocrity of the format. He should not have been in any contention for a top ten points finish but because of the playoff format he was arbitrarilly locked into the top ten with ten races to go while better drivers like Jamie McMurray, who outpointed at least two Chasers in 2004, were shut out.
Second, I think you misunderstand what constitutes a competitive environment. The #24 and #17 are "out of the Chase." So what? Hendrick Motorsports and Roush Performance are still dominant powers for the Chase. The points this year are not any closer than in past years; the difference from past years is the teams that win the title/"make the Chase" have more teammates crowding out opponants from title/top ten contention.
The number of winning teams has not improved at all in this decade; the multicar monster has simply allowed fewer and fewer team owners to control more and more of the starting field, so team owners like Hendrick or Roush or Joe Gibbs realistically have no one other than each other to race against.
This is not what constitutes a competitive environment. A competitive environment is one with the following -
*** At least twelve teams (not just drivers) winning races every year.
*** 40-plus lead changes in race after race.
*** The top teams enduring the same struggles as the smaller outfits - show me a season where each of Hendrick's cars and each of Roush's cars et al has at least two DNQs and you'll see a competitive environment; show me a season where Hendrick, Penske, etc. are talking about how big their teams are and how these scrappy small teams are killing them in race after race and you'll see a competitive environment; show me a season where Talladega breaks 50 lead changes while Pocono and Atlanta break 60 apiece and you'll see a competitive environment.
The Chase has created nothing positive to the sport.
Posted by: Mike Daly | Apr 30, 2008 6:51:13 PM
One other criteria for a competitive environment -
*** The norm is seeing at least one new winning team a year.
Posted by: Mike Daly | Apr 30, 2008 6:53:31 PM
Just wanted to say, SUPER job Sunday!!! I have no fingernails left! Trent, pleasure to meet you face to face! Hope I run in to you at Richmond! Best of luck to you guys - hope to see ya in Winners Circle!!!!
Posted by: nutz4newman | Apr 30, 2008 8:43:48 PM
I have to completely disagree with you mike. with out the chase i felt the points racing was a joke. Matt Kenseth had the championship locked up with two months to go a few years back. It wasnt even worth watching. atleast now you have to wait until the last lap to see who is going to win the championship. it s as close to a playoff scenario that you can have in racing and i personally like it. I will agree with you on this, it doesnt always benefit the best overall running team from begining to end. but then again, neither do the nfl playoffs. Example the Gianst winning the superbowl.
Posted by: trent | Apr 30, 2008 9:07:46 PM
Hi
I am new here and I felt this topic is very interesting.I love the 12 team and have been a fan since 2003.
With the implementation of COT the chase should be abolished.
Reason:
Not very many cars are falling out of races anymore. If a car wrecks it is much easier to fix. The COT is very durable and as a result the probability of a run away points leader is almost erased. This tightens up the points.
Guys are now racing for 38th place on track at the end of the race. With the old car that did not happen, there were many wrecked cars by race end and people were racing for 25th while people fell out of races. Now guys that are running off pace sometimes 5 laps down actually get a 30th place finish.
Mechanical failures do more points damage than accidents. A guy can be off pace 4-7 laps down and do better than a guy that looses an engine.
The CoT takes away the drama associated with the chase. Before you would count on guys falling out of races from accidents now there is a better opportunity to fix the car. This decreases the points spread. Richmond was a snooze last year, no drama the chase was set 3 races earlier.
The COT has changed racing completely and I believe that Nascar has to take a closer look at their points system with this new style of racing. With the old car Kyle Busch would probably be 15th in points but that wing helped him save the race car on many occasions. He should have about 4 DNFs by now (Dega, Bristol, Cali and atlanta). However he was able to win 2 of these races because even if he hit the wall and was wrecking sideways it did not affect him.
So much for a car putting it into the drivers hands. It seems like it is more about organizations and manufacturers than the drivers. The chase will open a can of worms with sponsorship in time and this will only be escalated with the economic situation. I can see a pattern every year with people making the chase 3 RCR, 3 Gibbs, 3 HMS and 3 Roush cars and the occasional surprise here and there. Anyone one of these guys can take my grandma and put in their car and she would make the chase.
The element of drama is becoming almost extinct with Nacar racing and it becomes almost predictable what to expect.This is no fun for us fans. I do say that Daytona was a breath of fresh air.
Posted by: carfan12 | May 1, 2008 10:13:03 AM
Testing, testing, testing. The teams that do plenty of on track testing are the teams that run well. In 2005 & 2006, Penske Racing really struggled on the intermediate tracks. They did a lot of on track testing before the 2007 season and were greatly improved. Yes, there's obviously more to it than that(see Dave in the Bend's post) but, from what I've observed, testing is playing a very big role in team performance.
As far as the "mega teams" dominating the sport - that's got nothing to do with the Chase. Gibbs, Hendrick, Roush, etc, would be occupying many of the top spots in the standings with or without the Chase format. They've got money and plenty of resources and that's hard to beat.
Posted by: revs | May 1, 2008 10:16:42 AM
Absolutely, Revs and Dave in the Bend. The new car, if anything, might actually increase the "drama" of the Chase. When the drivers are on the track (as opposed to back in the garage, or heading home after a wreck), doesn't that make for better competition? And who's to say whether or not Kyle would have saved his car if it were the "old" one? He has incredible car control. And Kyle has by no means been the only driver to re-gain control of a car that stepped out. To be honest, I'd rather see a great save than a crash any day.
The "mega teams" are, as Revs said, just that due to resources: whether those resources deal with information gathering, support staff, drivers, whatever. It's a package deal. Always has been, always will be.
Posted by: Nila | May 1, 2008 12:54:20 PM
Sometimes you guys write stuff and it makes something go "click" in my brain....good feedback. :D
Posted by: Karen | May 1, 2008 8:00:37 PM
Mike Daly is clearly a socialist, atleast when it comes to sports. He dreams and dreams of something...that will never happen. Other major league sports implement cost control measures and...the Patriots still win super bowls, the Yankees and Red Sox still make the playoffs and World Series. Dan Snider created the most valuable sports franchise in America in the Washington Redskins and spends cash like it's going out of style...and they can barely make the playoffs.
You can't stop the "haves" from wanting to spend their money to win. You can't force an Owner to spend his profits to make his team more competitive if he wants to pocket the cash (Richald Childress for 5 years). You can't make talented people live up to their talent (see the pitcher fiasco's in MLB). You can't control sports.
Even if you went to the extreme of creating the Nascar IROC series to satisfy Mike Daley and an outside party built every single car...you can't stop Rick Hendrick from hiring the smartest crew chiefs to and best drivers. He will still win.
Yes, Nascar seems to be more competitive. A new car that everyone is learning helps. Toyota's new engine and alignment with Gibb's helps. The engine leasing programs that the big teams are doing to the smaller teams helps. And the old luck of the draw on wrecks, gas mileage, caution flags, and parts failures helps.
Posted by: Michael | May 2, 2008 11:02:22 AM
Michael, you can stop the "haves," with spending caps, inter-team revenue sharing, a luxury tax, an the like - rules that directly stop teams from being able to outspend their opponants. You give Hendrick way too much credit by in effect dismissing the very real resource edge he has on the majority of teams in the field. He is not winning because of his drivers or crew chiefs - the only time he ever did that was with Tim Richmond and Harry Hyde.
Your comparison with team owners like Daniel Snyder ignores the teams that are winning championships - not one of which is a "have not" team, not one of which has struggled against richer outfits. Having said that, you also ignore tht the NFL has seen nine different Superbowl winners in twelve games since the end of the Cowboys dynasty - indication that their spending limits do work for competitve depth. That Daniel Snyder s struggling to win anything doesn't change the resource gap reality.
Yes you can "control" sports. You can take the resource advantages way and make them have to win on talent, aggression, and killer instinct.
carfan12 is correct abou the COT, but not neessarily for the reasons he cites - the COT promised to put the racing in the driver's hands; it has done the opposite - made racing more of an engineering exercise instead of a racers' competition. The day you see teams winning races BY NOT NEEDING A SEVEN-POST SHAKER MACHINE OR BY ONLY NEEDING TO SPEND $10 MILLION PER CAR PER YEAR is when you see where cost control efforts truly work.
BTW, where did Childress not spend his profits to make his team better?
Posted by: Mike Daly | May 3, 2008 12:10:58 AM
Trent, noting the big failing of the old Latford point system is not a defense of the Chase, because the Chase does not address that initial failing - refusal to rewad winning races. To addres the deficiencies of the old pint system, they hould have looked to a simple criteria for improvement - so increase points for race winners and for most laps led that it becomes mathematically imposible to win the title without most wins and most laps led in the season. Don't shut out teams from the top ten in points; make them fight harder for wins.
Posted by: Mike Daly | May 3, 2008 12:16:25 AM
I think the answer is simply that the top owners in the sport have most of the teams now. HMS has 4 teams, Rousch 5, JGR 3, RCR 3, EMS 3, DEI 3. Penske 3. There aren't that many field fillers like there used to be. And these guys don't just have a lot of cars for the sake of having a lot of cars. They have managed to figure out how to get all of their cars running well. I remember when Rousch had 5 cars back in the mid 90's but only Martin and Burton were running well. The 16, 26 and 97 were never that great back then but now Rousch has figured out how to get all 5 of his cars competitive.
So that would be my guess. The fact that the top owners, own most of the cars in Cup now and most of them have figured out how to get all of their cars running well.
It could also be pressure from the sponsors as well. I think back in the 90's guys like Rousch and Hendrick didn't have a problem with making one or more cars test cars and thus didn't really focus on making them run well. Sponsors accepted that because they weren't paying as much money back then as they are now. Now every major sponsor is paying a lot of money to be on a Cup car and thus car owners have to make sure all of their sponsors are happy so they're doing everything they can to make all of their cars run well, not just one or two.
I'm sure that there are other factors but those two are the main two IMO. I don't think the chase has as much to do with it as people think. I think the top owners would still be looking to have 3 or 4 cars even without the chase and I think the pressure from the sponsors would still be there even without the chase but I could be wrong.
Posted by: Ken | May 4, 2008 7:47:53 PM
mike daily
your an idiot, you alway's have been. if you hate this sport so much why do you watch it? why do you coment on it? just go away and get your fact's straight before you run that jib all the time.
bye the way they do reward lap leaders and race winners with more points now. the fact that you dont know that or dont think it's enough shows how little you know about the sport and how hard it is to make up points.
go away mike.
Posted by: freak | May 5, 2008 7:47:44 AM
Well I think Freak addressed some interesting points.
I like the chase, I like the changes that they made to the format to reduce driving around for points. I also liked that this season NASCAR is going to take away bonus win points if you are caught with a penalty in the race that you won. I do think they will continue to tweak it to make it better if more problems arise.
Posted by: kendria | May 5, 2008 11:12:08 PM
freak, I don't hate the sport. Before you lecture me about getting facts straight follow your own advice and get the facts straight. I know they have bonus points for race winners and lap leaders; my point is it's not relevent because the system rewards mediocrity - best average finish. The system is supposed to reward performance - most wins, most laps led.
So freak, don't lecture me or anyone else about anything because you're not qualified to have any kind of opinion about it.
Posted by: Mike Daly | May 6, 2008 11:02:15 AM
like i said dumbass your an idiot. the sport is all about consistancy, which means best average finish dummy. i will lecture you because I know what the sport is.
i work in it i live my whole life around it. i am working sunday to get that best average finish so we can be in the chase. that is what the sport is all about.
we want to win just as bad as anyone else but we aint gonna blow a top five finish bye making a bone head move to try and win.
just cause you dont agree doesnt make you write. i have told you this for two years now, YOUR OPINION IS NO MORE IMPORTANT THAN MINE. MINE HOW EVER COMES WITH MANY YEARS OF ACTUALLY WORKING FOR THE RACE TEAM/TEAMS THAT YOU LOVE TO CRITICISE.
I BELIEVE I AM MORE THAN QUALIFIED TO GIVE ACTUAL FACTS AND OPINIONS ON WHAT GOES ON IN MY LINE OF WORK.
WHEN I NEED AN OPINION OF A GUY WHO HAS NEVER WORKED IN NASCAR AND IS OBVIOUSLY LONELY AND MAD AT THE WORLD TO GIVE ME ADVISE ON IF IM QUALIFIED TO GIVE OPINIONS ON MY LINE OF WORK, ILL BE SURE TO HOLLA AT YA.
NOW PLEASE HOLD YOUR BREATH AND WAIT FOR MY CALL AS YOU TAKE YOUR NEXT ORDER. THANK YOU COME AGAIN.
Posted by: freak | May 6, 2008 3:57:36 PM
P.S IN YOUR OWN WORDS YOU SAID THE SPORT IS SUPPOSE TO REWARD PERFORMANCE. IF YOU KNEW ANYTHING ABOUT THIS LEVEL OF NASCAR YOU WOULD KNOW THAT IN ORDER TO RUN IN THE TOP TEN EVERY WEEK YOU HAVE TO BE PERFORMING ALMOST PERFECT. THATS HOW HARD OUR SPORT IS.
THERE ARE OVER FIVE HUNDRED PEOPLE THAT WORK TO PUT THESE RACE CARS OUT ON THE TRACK EVERY WEEK JUST HERE AT HENDRICK.
ALL OF THEM PLAY A ROLE IN THE WEEKS OF PREPORATION THAT GOES IN TO EACH CAR ON SUNDAY. THEN THE ROAD CREW HAS TO HAVE THERE SHIT TOGETHER JUST TO GET THE CAR INTO THE RACE AND IN A GOOD SPOT. THEN THEYE HAVE TO MAKE SURE THE CAR STAYS TOGETHER FOR THE WHOLE RACE. THAN WE COME IN AND HAVE TO DO OUR JOB WRITE AS A PIT CREW OR WE TAKE THE CAR OUT OF THE CHANCE TO WIN.
ALL THAT AND PLENTY IM LEAVING OUT( I KEPT IT SIMPLE FOR YOU)IS WHAT PERFORMANCE IS ALL ABOUT.
DONT BRING A KNIFE TO A GUN FIGHT SON. YOU MIGHT CAN SPELL BETTER THAN ME BUT YOU CANT WIN A BATTLE OF WHITTS.
Posted by: FREAK | May 6, 2008 4:08:13 PM
Freak, the sport is about WINNING, and LEADING is integral to winning. No, you DON'T know what the sport is because if you did you would not be as sanctimonious as you are. If you want to win, you GO FOR IT; you NEVER worry about points because that will sort itself out; you race to win and you don't give a damn about the points. Winning the most races in a season is a superior accomplishment to a championship.
And why should I care how much work goes into building the cars? Does that somehow change what the sport is about? And you can't even spell "right" properly; when you're doing pitstops "write," you're screwing up.
It's irrelevent to what racing is about - GOING FOR THE WIN.
Posted by: Mike Daly | May 6, 2008 4:39:26 PM
So Freak, here's the deal - come back to me when you have a damned clue, because for all the work you claim to put into building the cars you haven't got crap.
Posted by: Mike Daly | May 6, 2008 4:40:58 PM
I'll make it simple for you - if you're satisfied with finishing 13th, you're a loser. If you're pleased with the effort, fine; if you're pleased with the result, you're a loser. You go for the win - PERIOD.
Posted by: Mike Daly | May 6, 2008 4:42:35 PM
Not to egg this on. But Mr. Daly you should care how the cars are put together. The word team is HUGE in this sport. Team means exactly that. From the guys at the shop all the way to the track. As far as that 13th place finish you are talking about, I sure as hell hope you are not referring to Richmond. Lets not even go there. No team or driver is EVER satisfied with anything other than 1st. But lets step over into reality for just a second. I have no balls so don't think this is about ego. With that said there are 43 cars on that track. Only 1 is gonna win, so therefore you have to also want the best finish you can get. These guys are in a sport where statistic wise they will lose more than win. There is more than 1 race going on during every NASCAR race and you have to think about the BIG picture as well. To keep sponsors and owners happy you have to consider everything.
I am not picking on you but this is a blog where ALL views can be shared.
Freak, dude breath. You have pit crew challenge in just a week and a half.
Trent, did you do this on purpose?
Posted by: kendria | May 7, 2008 1:42:44 AM
im cool yo. its like i said all along MIKE DAILY is an idiot, his opinions and what he thinks are facts are so screwed up that in his mind they are the only ones that matter.
bottom line weather mike douchbag thinks you should win at all cost, we are always trying to win but we play a bigger game than just winning. i cant possibly explain it any better than i did already. so piss off miky and open your eyes to what our sport is and always has been and not what you think it should be.
ps trent didnt do anything and you cant insult my spelling cause i already told you i dont spell well douch.
Posted by: freak | May 7, 2008 8:44:55 AM
kendria - Well said. One winner out of 43 each week. Common sense says every team wants to win, but a 2nd, 9th, 15th, 25th or 30th place finish is better than not finishing at all.
freak - I love your passion for the sport. Most of us fans understand how hard the whole team has to work to run good.
Mike - I've always thought the object of the 36 race schedule is to win he Championship. You don't have to win the most races to do that. Sure, it would be great if the championship winner won 10 or 15 races. But that's not going to happen if they finish last in the rest of the races because they wreck themselves trying to win every race at all costs.
Posted by: Diane | May 7, 2008 10:12:58 AM
Diane, the SANCTIONING BODY'S object of the 36-race schedule is to determine the championship, but the real goal for racers was to win races. The championship was always secondary until NASCAR began front-loading monies that were supposed to go to race purses toward the point fund; eventually the racers had to worry about points instead of winning because that was where the real money was going.
You, Freak, etc. keep going to the bogus dichotomy of "they wreck themselves trying to win every race." That was never the case; it became the catchall rationalization for stroking it for points. The guys who went for the win instead of points won the races.
kendria, the word team doesn't justify not going for the win. If you're a racer, go for the lead and ignore the points; the points will sort out. Going for the win wil keep your sponsors a lot hapier than points-racing.
Freak, you're a f-ing loser if you worry about points. A real racer goes for the win; you're the one whose viewpoints are so fracked up as to be incomprehensible. Open your own eyes or shut your trap because you don't know what racing is, no mater how many hours a day you spend building racecars.
Posted by: Mike Daly | May 7, 2008 2:35:37 PM
So let me spell it out for you AGAIN, Freak - racing is about going for the lead - period, end of discussion, that is how you race because that is how you win, and winning is what matters; points don't. Don't lecture me or anyone else about it because you aren't qualified to lecture anyone.
Posted by: Mike Daly | May 7, 2008 2:39:15 PM
Man a live, i take two days off from the site and all heck breaks loose. I love it. Freak, you are a passionate person about your team and sport, so am it. Everyone has there own opinion and everyone aint gonna think alike. Thats what this forum is for. Let it all out and see where we all stand. thats what i think. holla
Posted by: trent | May 7, 2008 5:15:52 PM
Trent said: "Everyone has there own opinion and everyone aint gonna think alike."
That's very true. We should all agree to disagree. This would be a very boring world if we all had the same opinions.
Posted by: Diane | May 7, 2008 7:43:23 PM
Freak - 1 Mike Daily - 0
Posted by: Lewis88 | May 8, 2008 2:29:25 PM
Make that Freak - 2
Posted by: Diane | May 8, 2008 3:07:01 PM
Freak - 3
Posted by: Kendria | May 8, 2008 10:47:51 PM
hmmmmmm mike looks like i am qualified ah.
seems like the only one who mike daily speeks for is mike daily. so that being said i have proved my point at least for most of us and anytime you would like to meat me and kindly attempt to shut my mouth for me, please please please holla at me and i will gladly make it easy for you to come visit me.
now get back to work and super size that order mike because your mom wants here rent.
Posted by: freak | May 9, 2008 10:53:37 AM
buy the buy mike if the wins are so much more important than the championship why is it that every year at homestead some one other than the championship winner wins that race but no one hardly ever remembers who one it. is it because they spent so much time with the winner of the race or was it because they spent so much time talking to the new champion. hmm hmm hmm
Posted by: freak | May 9, 2008 10:58:05 AM
Man I wish you people could spell-check.
Bwwaahahahaaa.
Posted by: Dave in the Bend | May 9, 2008 11:44:44 AM
Dave in the Bend - Please don't come here and try to be an English teacher!!
Posted by: Diane | May 9, 2008 1:50:11 PM
Freak, kendria, diane
Good post, I agree with all three of you.
I'm looking forward to the Lady in Black
tomorrow night and at 200 MPH, it's gonna
be exciting.
Have a great week-end
Posted by: Dottie | May 9, 2008 11:59:15 PM
Lewis 88 - Freak - not telling the truth. Me - calling it as it is.
Freak, here's why - no one is trying in the Homestead race. Because they're all stroking for points, not racing. The wins matter more because that's the nature of racing, but because NASCAR front-loads monies that are supposed to go to race purses into the point fund, it's all become about points racing.
I spelled this out to you and everyone else earlier in this discussion. Are you so myopic that you didn't see it?
Screw the champion, the winner of the most races in a season is who matters. Win the races and just let the points fall where they fall.
Posted by: Mike Daly | May 10, 2008 12:26:50 PM
WOW Trent I'm missing the "Fireworks"...Thanks Di!
I'm gonna side with Freak, Daly your out to lunch!
Mike it's not about how many "battles" are won...overall who wins the "war"...and Freaks team IS in contention, I know the intesity and efforts that go into his and many many more operations!
Posted by: Fan #5 | May 10, 2008 5:27:42 PM
WELL, THAT WAS ANOTHER PROZAC RACE TO WATCH AS FAR AS BEING A NEWMAN FAN DAMN!
TRENT, NO ONE/TEAM IS PERFECT BROTHER BUT HOW MANY PIT PROBLEMS HAVE WE WITNESSED SINCE 2006?
THEN THE WRECK, I FEEL FOR YOU MAN! RYAN HAD TO BE FURIOUS BUT HE WILL ACT ACCORDINGLY AND NOT BLAST HIS TEAM.
FREAK AND MIKE GOOD POINTS ALL AROUND BUT I'M PLEADING THE 5TH FOR NOW!
Posted by: SOS | May 11, 2008 10:33:03 AM
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