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Racing and cheating
As i was watching the NBA game last night i started thinking about the allegations that Tim Donahgy was bringing up. For you that don't know what the heck I'm talking about, I ll explain. Tim Donahgy was a referee in the NBA for years and has admitted to gambling and fixing NBA games. Now he s telling the press that there are other referees that were involved in helping fix some playoff games. I guess my question is do you think there has ever been a race that has been fixed by a couple of drivers for the sake of the sport. Now here me out, I'm not saying there s never been cheating or other miss conduct in racing. That is what the sport was built on in the early days, what I'm saying is do you think there has ever been a situation where a group of drivers or owners have or even officials have made a decision on a race or caution or anything else to help a certain individual or team during a race. Now before everyone gets on here about when cautions are thrown and who gets the lucky dog and so forth, make sure you can back up what your saying. I ll be the first to admit that I thought it was kind of weird seeing JR. win at Daytona the very next race after his dad was killed there. Do i think it was fixed, no, but do i think it was a very weird situation, yes. Its all in how you look at things but i think it would be a lot harder to fix a race since you cant control the parts failures as to trying to fix an NBA game. Just thought i would bring it up since it was on the mind.
June 11, 2008 | Permalink
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yes i think there is, everything from parts on cars to (EXTRA) help pushing cars 40 yards to blowing a tire with 8 laps to go in richmond and staying out on the track on purpose just to get a caution so your teamate can catch the leader.
like you said thats all stuff that happens on a regular basis and we have slowly accepted that this sport has been built on it.
i think that the sport has choked out most of the competition buy restricting what can and cant be done. if your smart enough to outhink everyone else and make better faster race cars you should be allowed to do it. the old (run what you brung)theory would provide some more exciting racing i thing instead of follow the leader like we have now.instead of being called cheaters for meking somthing better your just plain smarter.
i think its impossible to fix a race because you cant control what happens on the track. wrecks, blown tires or motors, bad pit stops. its just to much. i do think the officials can help buy turning a blind eye to penalties in the pits and favoritism.
Posted by: freak | Jun 11, 2008 7:59:09 AM
I believe it is possible to fix races by giving tricked up rides to certain 'star' drivers.
In every race there are about 5 cars running seconds ahead of everyone else and it is weird. Considering that their team mates are in 35th. It may not be a guarantee win but 1 out of these 5 guys has a shot to win.
Giving Toyota extra HP is cheating.
I just find it odd that teams that are looking for or want to keep sponsors next year all of a sudden start running well.
Looking at it deeper I believe that it is possible to fix a race particularly with the COT. This is not an accusation but a possibility.If everyone else is working in a box then it becomes easier to guarantee a winner. You can pick up full seconds with just an illegal wing or splitter adjustment.
The chosen winner's car can be adjusted and he dominates the race.
Look at recent history. Most winners in the COT have flat out dominated the race by winning the pole and the race by 4 or more full seconds. Something is not right. That is a reason why they do not want to make changes to the COT because it would be harder to control race outcomes IMO.
I believe an inspector can be bribed to sweep things under the rug.
The thing is the COT magnifies all possible fixing. It was ridiculous to see guys starting in 38th spot with 20 laps to go make their way to the top 10 at Pocono.
The pit road penalties of late have been questionable IMO. Some drivers have said that they weren't speeding and I truly believe these pit penalties are subjective depending on who the driver is.
Posted by: C | Jun 11, 2008 10:43:58 AM
I, being a former racer in ASA, Artgo, Allpro, Remax, and several other series can attest to the fact that YES there is "cheating" in all levels of motorsports. I think everthing you guys have said is true, but the "cheating" is very small, very subtle and almost invisible in most instances. I have been on both sides of this situtation and I can say with confidence that all the drivers/crewchiefs know about it. Notice how right when Evernham motorsports started to have major trouble, they started to really "preform"? My prediction is JPM will start to run up front for a while- just to placate him. Nascar can't "hand" anyone a win- they just can help put them in a position to take advantage of how the cards are dealt during any givin race. I was at 'vegas the spring and you could sure see and hear(scanner) who was supposed to be upfront and who wasn't(you should have heard JJ whine!) IMHO, the deal with Rowdy is Nascar does't know how to slow him down. NOBODY can drive a POS racecar like he does- you don't have to like him to admit that(I don't). I could go on, but I'll shut the piehole now.
Posted by: elfiero | Jun 11, 2008 1:02:16 PM
My thoughts are this. Nascar is a family owned business first, a sport second. You can bet your bottom dollar that those who own the business will do "whatever it takes" to get the results ($$$) they are looking for.
Posted by: J in PA | Jun 11, 2008 1:28:25 PM
Anyone who has been around the sport for any length of time knows that NASCAR "manipulates" races from time to time. Whether it's a phantom yellow, a pit road penalty or something more obivious, it is a regular occurence. NASCAR is a dictatorship, so you either live with it or turn the channel. Those are your options.
Posted by: Rich | Jun 11, 2008 1:36:13 PM
Trent, I hate to change the subject but, any news on Ryan's future w/ Penske? With the crappy finishes lately, especially on tracks that he usually does good, would make me think he is looking hard at leaving. Just curious.
Posted by: Abs | Jun 11, 2008 1:56:17 PM
How about 2 (or was it 3) races ago when Jr got away with racing down and then out of pit road twice, even after being told by nascar not to do it again, even with emerg. vehicles there, EVEN AFTER getting a penatly by nascar.... which they then took back.... if thats not cheating or trying to get the fan fav to win then I dont know what is. Mind you its not JR who cheated (so you cant blame him) but Nascar who cheated the fans.
Posted by: smithfan | Jun 11, 2008 3:06:56 PM
The thing I cannot understand is that the COT defies the laws of physics, human rational and Psychology.
For the life of me at Darlington I saw a particular car smack the wall 6 times and went on to win the race while another car never even touched the wall finished 10th. Clearly if everything was fair and not cheated up (extra HP) the car that hit the wall would not win.
At Lowes I saw a car that smacked the wall then got rear ended 1 lap down finish the race 5th while other cars with no damage finish 20th. I have never seen a car with that much damage finish that high on a down force track (talk about extra HP). Clearly this defies all human comprehension.
At Pocono I saw 3 cars ( same manufacturer/organization.) restart 30 something with 20 laps to go, miraculously find their way to top 10 finishes. I need Einstein to explain this one. Pocono is so difficult to pass. Cars running 13th are usually 20 seconds off the leader. When someone explains that to me it will stop m from going nuts.
The COT is indeed a magical car and the magical ferries believe they can continue fool fans.
This circus act giving particular drivers cheated up cars because they are popular or can rattle up fans has got to stop it is becoming blatantly obvious IMO and the racing is becoming very plastic. It is missing authenticity.
The new race fan is not stuck in a trailer park in Alabama anymore rather in a penthouse in New Nork city. We are not dumb.
Posted by: C | Jun 11, 2008 3:45:58 PM
Yeah. What they ^ said.
Posted by: Dave in the Bend | Jun 11, 2008 6:35:15 PM
I'm glad smithfan brought up the Jr penalties in that race because it was the same race that Ryan got nailed for speeding on pit road and put to the back of the pack and yet Jr didn't.
I'm not gonna say one way or the other about cheating when it comes to the cars, because its something I can't see. But when it comes to "cautions" and pit road penalties (given or not), those, to me, can be pretty fishy.
Trent, I am curious about that Jr win at Daytona after Big E died. Was there a particular thing that happened that you think got him the win, or do u think the drivers gave it to him? Mind you, I am a 12 fan, but was a Big E fan up til his passing.
Posted by: JenInIL | Jun 11, 2008 8:46:56 PM
Cheating is alive and well in my book. These guys are supppose to try to find an advantage, that is NOT CALLED CHEATING.The teams do no more than they can get by with...........It's NASCAR, that is cheating.........they have their chosen few that they want to win and they will throw 'debris'cautions to get them back on the lead lap in a heartbeat. We know that 'iffy' things went on in the early days, between the drivers, but this is the so called people that run the show. That is what is not right. If the drivers teams, find an advantage and do not get caught, fine, if they get caught...fine...fine them.......We have watched for YEARS,with this happpening between the teams, and now all of a sudden in the last several years, the powers that be have got involved in who wins the race and it totally pisses us off. When certain people go a lap down, we know we are fixing to get a 'debris' caution........happens every time. How obvious can they get? We rednecks are stupid, so we won't notice it. That is what pisses me off most of all. THEY THINK WE ARE STUPID.
Posted by: 9fanatic | Jun 11, 2008 9:40:08 PM
9fan, I can't think of how many times I have heard DW say something like this -
'Ok here comes our leader, he just passed Jimmie Johnson in the 48 car, putting him a lap down and the caution is out'.
That happens a LOT, although I will say it seems to happen less since people started bitching about it. I remember someone posting on one of these blogs a while back that they were at a race and paid close attention - they would throw a mystery caution, the track vehicles would go out and go around once or twice without even stopping.
They also asked a few of the drivers about it, and they pretty much to a man said 'we are in the entertianment business' so I guess that is what it is when it all boils out.
The drivers do their best and hope for luck, while the man behind the NASCAR curtain makes sure the fans see a good show.
Posted by: FedEx Guy | Jun 12, 2008 11:05:06 AM
9fan, I can't think of how many times I have heard DW say something like this -
'Ok here comes our leader, he just passed Jimmie Johnson in the 48 car, putting him a lap down and the caution is out'.
That happens a LOT, although I will say it seems to happen less since people started bitching about it. I remember someone posting on one of these blogs a while back that they were at a race and paid close attention - when they would throw a mystery caution, the track vehicles would go out and go around once or twice without even stopping.
They also asked a few of the drivers about it, and they pretty much to a man said 'we are in the entertianment business' so I guess that is what it is when it all boils out.
The drivers do their best and hope for luck, while the man behind the NASCAR curtain makes sure the fans see a good show.
Posted by: FedEx Guy | Jun 12, 2008 11:05:54 AM
trent, i'm curious why you think Jr's win after Big E's death is questionable. i remember watching that race and thinking that jr had the most dominant car. it seemed not many people could pass him. are you saying the other drivers let him win?
the race that i do think is very questionable is when jr. won 4 in a row at 'dega. they had that no passing below the yellow rule by that time. it was with a few laps to go that jr passed kenseth and went below the yellow line. nascar ruled that he was already around kenseth before he passed him. i say if it had been a driver like tony or harvick at the time that they would have had that win taken away from them.
Posted by: KMC | Jun 12, 2008 12:43:09 PM
The reason why I believe that there may be some cheating is why does the 4 time champ complain publicly about things that affect him and turns a blind eye to everything else.
Some cars were running 'Yaw' set up he B!#ched and complained about it. Not a word from him about Toyota extra HP. Maybe he is running the same thing.
Not a word about possible COT changes. Considering how horrible the racing has been if he cares about his sport he should speak up. Jr. is one of the very few drivers that actually care about the sport to say something.
JG is the only one Nascar will listen to and I only wish he would speak up for these drivers. In the words of Kyle Busch 'The COT sucks'.
Don't you think it's odd that he has not complained about the COT being the biggest whiner that he is?
Posted by: C | Jun 12, 2008 1:31:45 PM
you are all unbelievable IDIOTS. some of your theorys are amazing. you all should write novels or somthing. trent good job on weeding out the conspieracy theorist. i suppose we didnt actually land on the moon, and the red bull pit crew is actually good, and elvis is still alive watching nascar on sundays. come on.
Posted by: freak | Jun 13, 2008 8:25:14 AM
you are all unbelievable IDIOTS. some of your theorys are amazing. you all should write novels or somthing. trent good job on weeding out the conspieracy theorist. i suppose we didnt actually land on the moon, and the red bull pit crew is actually good, and elvis is still alive watching nascar on sundays. come on.
Posted by: freak | Jun 13, 2008 8:25:27 AM
smithfan and jeninit, Jerry Bonkowski explained what happened when it looked like Nascar was favoring Jr on a pit road penalty. Go back and check his columns. I'm a Jr fan, and it looked funny to me, but when Jerry explained it, it made sense. As for his Daytona win after Sr died, it was a great car, great driving, his grief, and God's hand.
Posted by: ginger | Jun 13, 2008 2:55:13 PM
Or how about when there is rain in the area? They wait until the driver they want to win is in the lead, the caution waves and the race is over.
Ryan deserved that win over Gordon.
Posted by: Cheryl | Jun 13, 2008 3:40:31 PM
Absolutely manipulate where possible and fix where possible.
Anyone remember an article written in the Daytona News-Journal about Brian France's company Brands Sense? Well Brian France's company sold Tony Stewart merchandise. This aarticle was written before the 2005 Pepsi 400 which Stewart won and also won the cup.
Posted by: Mary | Jun 13, 2008 5:40:07 PM
Hey Trent,
While reading your post, your example came to my mind. It was a very "popular" win.
Selective Enforcement.
That is may take. Start with pre-race inspection. Very easy to overlook or underlook in so many areas. Cautions, and penalties almost always involve a human's judgement. Agree with most of the previous examples. How about the recent streak for Budweiser, while impending hostile takeover is on tap.
It'd be cool to have the reading on Helio's gas tank in Japan. I have always been on board with Danica. But, her win was very good for the IRL. And, just before the merge took place that may defer her next win. Just sayin', that was very handy.
There was a time while Kurt was still at Roush when I wondered if the drivers drew lots to see who took him out each week, or block him in the pits ect.
Was there a driver secret that Rusty would never win a plate race? lol
When you see a no-call, just ask yourself.. could "my" driver have gotten away with that?
Trent, it is our wish that reguardless of future developments, you may continue to serve us. Hang in there man.
Posted by: Larry | Jun 14, 2008 11:19:01 PM
And,
Several years back Nascar parked a driver for a Cup race, for actions during a Truck race. That young snot-nosed punk needed taught a lesson, and it was so.
That driver has survived quite well since then. Kevin Harvick said he was gonna whack a guy, then did.
The backmarker who was giving the 29 trouble? Darn, I wanna say it was J.D. Gibbs, but it may have been Coy.
But, either way..it's a small world! lol
Posted by: Larry | Jun 14, 2008 11:27:34 PM
From the 98 Daytona 500 where Bobby Labonte, Mayfield and the rest just followed Sr. around for the last few laps not even trying to make a pass and that last bogus yellow to make sure that they didn't to yesterday when somehow Jr. goes 10 laps farther on fuel than anyone else and even passes the pace car without getting penalized there's been plenty of evidence to suggest that NASCAR manipulates races as much as they can.
Did NASCAR even check Jr.'s fuel cell after yesterday's race? HMS has never gotten good fuel mileage, they get busted for cheating every year and yet somehow Jr. manages to run 11 more laps than anyone was supposed to be able to run yesterday. NASCAR showed favortism by not penalizing him for passing the pace car(if that had been someone like Robby Gordon then you know that he would have been penalized) and then showed at the very least incompetence by not inspecting his car completely.
Bottom line is that NASCAR has their obvious favorites and guys that they're going to penalize every chance they get.
Posted by: Ken | Jun 16, 2008 11:29:24 AM
Ginger I did read it and theres still no way Jr should have gotten away with it plain and simple. I suppose this week you will tell me that JR didnt pass the pace car, the pace car slowed down....twice.
I dont blame Jr for taking advantage of Nascars want or need for him to win but for the people thinking it doesnt happen
PUUUUULLLLLEEEEEEEEEAAAAAASE
Posted by: smithfan | Jun 16, 2008 12:03:12 PM
Nascar is a joke anymore if someone else would pass the pace car, they would be black flaged. also if you saw JR turn his car off going down pit lane after the race, he did't runout of gas ,he turned it off,and then he said that he ran out. the whole race he had to know that he would win. also the number 18 was told to back off and not to run JR, NASCAR shows who they think will bring in th most money. i hope the lady who is seuing nascar right or wrong will win and show the real nascar. you don't need to look it up i did!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by: mike s. | Jun 16, 2008 12:48:06 PM
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